A New Admissions Cycle

Claire O’Brien: Hi, everybody — welcome to Applying Yourself, a law school admissions podcast from Washington University School of Law in St. Louis. My name is Claire O’Brien, Senior Director of Admissions at WashU Law. I have been in this role for three years, and at WashU Law for six. I’m sad to say it, but this is going to be my last episode as Senior Director. I am staying with the university, but in a different capacity.

Really good news here, though — I’m excited to announce my successor, Alison Smith. So, Alison is coming in. She will be serving as the Senior Director of Admissions, and she currently works in the Career Center at WashU Law. I wanted to take this time to introduce Alison to our listeners, interview her in an informal way, and just so you all can get to know her before the cycle begins.

On a personal note: Alison is one of my good friends. We started in the Career Center together. We have kids who are the same age. Alison practiced law as well, which she’s going to tell us a little more about. She’s a lot of fun, very smart, and cares — and is going to be great for the WashU Law admissions office.

So, Alison — so good to talk with you. Thanks for being here today. Let’s start from the beginning. Can you tell us about your education — where you went to undergrad, your major, and when you decided law was the path for you?

Alison Smith: Absolutely. Well, thanks for having me, Claire. I am thrilled to join the admissions team at WashU Law. I’ve been with WashU for five years, and as Claire said, over in the Career Center where Claire and I first met as colleagues — and excited to be coming over to Admissions.

So, my collegiate education journey actually started here at WashU. So, yeah — go Bears! I am an institutional alum of Washington University. I came from a smaller town in rural Illinois and came to WashU in the fall of 2005. It was a different time then, wasn’t it?

Claire O’Brien: It was. It was. And it was a fantastic experience. Coming to WashU was an amazing experience. It changed my life. I’m grateful every day to the admissions office in the undergraduate institution for giving me the opportunity. And one of the motivators for joining the admissions office here at the law school is to do the same for other hopeful law students. So, can’t say enough good things about WashU.

Alison Smith: So I was here for undergrad from 2005 to 2009. During that time, I studied political science. I was a political science major, as is common among many lawyers my age. I had amazing opportunities provided at WashU through the courses I took and the activities I was involved in. Not only did I love WashU, I loved the city of St. Louis.

As I mentioned earlier, I came to St. Louis from Illinois, and coming to St. Louis was a little like coming to the big city. I loved it. I thought it was an amazing city with great opportunities. I loved the outdoor opportunities. Forest Park — I think a walk in Forest Park is about the best way to clear your head out there. I loved the city, loved the opportunities that were available at WashU.

As far as why law school and when law school: during my junior year at WashU, through an organization that I was involved in at WashU, I began volunteering with a nonprofit that worked with victims of domestic and intimate partner violence. Through that opportunity and that experience, I was exposed to the legal issues involved in orders of protection and the court system, and the different ways that the legal system played into serving victims of intimate partner violence. That’s really what sparked my interest.

I had the opportunity to be a crisis line volunteer answering phone calls at Legal Advocates for Abused Women — which has been absorbed by the Crime Victim Advocacy Center here in St. Louis. I just worked under inspiring attorneys — both the attorneys who worked there and the attorneys who were volunteering their time from firms in town. That’s what sparked my interest in law school.

Fast-forward a couple of years — I went to law school at Notre Dame, here in the Midwest. It was a great experience. I loved it, but certainly missed WashU when I was gone, and so have come full circle now. After practicing at a large law firm for six or seven years, I came back, and am excited to be in St. Louis.

Claire O’Brien: Okay, so a couple of follow-up questions to this. When you came to WashU in 2005 — did you have a Facebook account at that point or not?

Alison Smith: Oh, this is such a good question. So, right when I came — I think it was in August of 2005 that WashU was added to the Facebook network. I don’t know if any of our listeners are WashU alums from that era. You may be able to correct me on the exact month, but I feel like it was right before we started. My older sister went to a different university — she was a year ahead of me, and her university had access to Facebook sooner. So I remember being envious, but thrilled that by the time I stepped foot on campus, I had a Facebook page.

Claire O’Brien: What about — okay, so then you worked with domestic violence issues. So when you went to law school, were you like, “I think this is what I’m going to do”? And — spoiler alert — which you didn’t end up doing. So I guess the question would be: did you enter law school with a different career in mind?

Alison Smith: I did, I did. Similar to a number of law students, I was inspired by a public sector career. I was inspired by the law’s ability to help people. When I came into law school, I saw that in a very limited way. I saw lawyers helping individuals in the domestic court system. I saw prosecutors and public defenders. I had a little bit of a limited understanding of law and the way that the law helped people, helped communities.

As I went through law school, I was still motivated by an interest to serve clients and to be involved in what was hopefully making communities and the world a better place. But I saw, for myself, that that was a broader definition. So as I spent my second summer summering at a large law firm in the Southeast — through that experience, I was able to see that, of course, I would never compare big law work to work at a nonprofit, but I did see that there were opportunities for students who were motivated to make a difference and to make change for that to play out in different ways.

Because of the different factors involved in making a career decision — financial, geographic, partners — I had a partner who was in medical school, so finances were important. I made a decision to go into big law after graduation.

Claire O’Brien: And then with big law, you did transactions, right? Transactional work?

Alison Smith: I did regulatory compliance. So, a bit of a crossover practice group between the litigation and the corporate practice groups.

Claire O’Brien: So would you work with clients to make sure they were compliant, or you saw them after they were not compliant?

Alison Smith: Both, both. There were fun aspects to both sides. What I did — I mostly worked with large non-bank and bank mortgage servicers, working on compliance with CFPB regulations, with SCRA — kind of alphabet soup, we called it. So, working on the different laws and regulations that were in place to protect consumers and to ensure that our clients were complying.

Claire O’Brien: What was your favorite part about working at Bradley?

Alison Smith: Oh, I think my favorite part was my colleagues. I didn’t know anyone when I moved to Birmingham except for my partner, and I was a little bit nervous. I was coming from a Midwestern law school, going into a Southeastern market, didn’t have a lot of connections or people I knew down there. And I just cannot say enough positive things about my colleagues. I think those people are the people that really showed me there was a place for me at a large law firm, even though that wasn’t why I went to law school initially.

To this day, I admire the partners and the associates that I worked with. I often think about the lessons that I learned while I was working at Bradley. I repeat some of those lines in my head. And this evening, I actually have an opportunity to have drinks with a former colleague who’s in town for a St. Louis-based client. So, I would say that the people, far and away, were the best part of working at Bradley.

Claire O’Brien: It’s really true. I feel like you can do any type of work if you like the people you’re doing it with.

Alison Smith: That has been my experience, yeah.

Claire O’Brien: What’s one piece of advice — I know you advise law students for 1L job search, 2L job search, post-grad search. I imagine the audience listening to this podcast are coming into law school or thinking about law school. What would the advice be that you would give to them in terms of, “Know this — like, you’re coming to law school, know this about the job search”?

Alison Smith: Oh, that’s a good one. I think the one thing I would want students who are coming into law school to know about the job search is how early it starts. Even in the five years that I’ve been in the Career Center at WashU, we’ve seen it move up earlier and earlier. When I was in law school, I think it was very normal to come to law school to really get your bearings and to start searching for your 1L summer job over spring break. Maybe not that late, but pretty late. And what we see now is that it starts for some of our students before they’ve even stepped foot on campus.

Claire O’Brien: So the Career Center is meeting with…

Alison Smith: Oh, my gosh — yeah, we’re meeting with students who have been admitted. We are putting students in touch with alums. We’re talking to students about their resume. So it starts really early. That would be one thing I would want students to know, so it wasn’t a surprise.

Claire O’Brien: And is this both, would you say, public interest and firm?

Alison Smith: Yes, I think so. While the postings may not be open as early in the public sector — so we may not see that students are actually hitting send on an application — I just define the job search very broadly. So when I say the job search starts early, I would be thinking of networking. I would be thinking of preparing materials, taking advantage of opportunities, growing your knowledge base, learning more about different types of law. With that definition of job search, I would say it starts early for students across all sectors.

Claire O’Brien: Another question we get on the admission side is: are grades the be-all and end-all for the job search? I know that historically, there are things about, you know, “1L grades matter 100%” of resulting in 1L employment. Is that true? Can you talk to us about your thoughts on grades and their effect on the job search?

Alison Smith: That’s a great question. I hear that a lot also from students in the Career Center. My experience has been that employers are looking at the whole candidate. So, grades are a piece of the puzzle. That said, grades open doors. I always think of a student’s candidacy as if it were different levers, and the more turned up one lever is, the lower another one can be.

So I think if a student has fantastic experience working prior to law school, or has an amazing undergraduate GPA, or a list of accomplishments from undergrad that are just phenomenal, then I think they’re given a little bit of breathing room on how important that first semester or first year GPA is to their whole-person candidacy. But I think if you have a very high GPA after your first year, maybe you have a little breathing room on the other things.

I would say that what we hear over and over again from employers is that they are looking at the whole candidate. They’re looking at a candidate’s desire to do that type of work. They’re looking backwards — at a candidate’s skills, demonstrated interest. And they’re looking forward — at a candidate’s goals, what they’re hoping to do, the contribution they want to make. Again, they’re taking into account the whole candidate.

Claire O’Brien: I think this is why this transition is going to be pretty seamless for you. As you’re talking, I’m thinking the same thing is true of what I’ve seen the admissions committee do. I’ve observed the admissions committee talking about the lever idea: this candidate doesn’t have the strongest LSAT, but look at their work experience, or look at their campus involvement. So really the same is true in both spheres.

Alison Smith: It is. I think it’s absolutely true. So as you’re looking at candidates and looking for students that are going to add value to the WashU Law community and experience, employers are looking for students who are going to add value to their organization — whether it’s a mission-based organization or whether it’s a revenue-generation organization. They’re looking for students who are going to add value. So I think, for those students that are applying to law school or applying to jobs, focusing on the way that you can contribute and can add value is the name of the game on both sides.

Claire O’Brien: And, Alison, we’ve talked about some trends or some things that you’ve seen trending in the Career Center, one being the earlier recruitment timeline — just how early it starts. What about, in light of the Supreme Court decision in the summer outlawing affirmative action, do we still see LCLD programs, like diversity hiring, the way we did? Or has that changed as a result of that decision? What do you see in that sphere?

Alison Smith: Yeah, so we’re seeing that things are still up in the air. Some things are still changing, but what we are seeing is that LCLD programs still exist — LCLD scholars — lots of firms and organizations have diversity programs. What we are seeing is sometimes a change in the definition. So, instead of prompts that focus on a student’s diversity being who they are or a characteristic that they can put into a checkbox, perhaps the prompts are looking for what a student can contribute, and what their appreciation of and commitment to diversity is.

So, it’s something that we’re watching, and we’re seeing change over time. But we’re absolutely seeing that our employers are committed to recruiting and to employing students with diverse backgrounds and diverse mindsets — diverse ways that they’re going to contribute.

Claire O’Brien: And again, that’s another parallel in admissions. I feel like schools are also committed, you know, in the same vein. It may be — instead of a diversity statement — they’re looking at the same characteristics, but in a different way, not just race and ethnicity.

Alison Smith: Yeah.

Claire O’Brien: Okay — so what are you most excited about coming over to admissions?

Alison Smith: Oh, I’m excited for a variety of reasons. But I think my lived experience that I shared a little bit of earlier is probably what I am the most excited to see — that a similar experience could happen for other students. When I came to WashU, it was really a dream come true. It’s a place where I learned to embrace a growth mindset. It’s a place where I learned from so many of my classmates and so many of my professors — and just people that I encountered in my experience at WashU really changed my life, changed the way I thought about things, changed the way I interacted with other people. So, to be part of the process that allows students that opportunity at the law school level is really inspiring to me, and is really motivating.

Claire O’Brien: What do you think makes the most successful law students once they’re here? What traits, what characteristics? Who do you see getting the jobs, getting involved, thriving at the law school?

Alison Smith: I think students who communicate often succeed very well. That’s a little bit self-serving, because in the Career Center, we’re always looking for students to be engaging with us. We want them to be reading our communications. We want them to be letting us know. But I really do see that students who are engaging with their professors, engaging with their classmates, engaging with the student services offices, are the most successful. So I would focus on being an open and effective communicator. I think that will really help shape a great experience.

Claire O’Brien: That’s awesome. Well, I’m really excited to have you. I know the team is excited to have you in the admissions office. Fair warning — the hardest part of the job is we have so many amazing candidates and such a limited number of seats.

Alison Smith: Oh gosh, I can imagine that’ll be hard. I wish we had a seat for all the amazing people who apply.

Claire O’Brien: The also exciting and interesting part of the work is that the admissions committee is always looking for something different — a different mix of people. So you never know. We always say apply, because, as Alison described, the lever methodology — what you don’t have here, you may have here, and that could be the very thing the admissions committee is looking for.

Alison Smith: Absolutely.

Claire O’Brien: So, I guess I could keep talking, but I guess we’ll close it here. Any last words? Any “see you out there”? Is that what you’re telling our listeners?

Alison Smith: Yes — see you out there. I am thrilled to be joining the admissions office. Excited to meet with and hear from the amazing applicant pool that I know WashU Law draws. I’m so excited to come on board.

Claire O’Brien: Well, we’re excited, Alison. Thanks so much. We hope to see your application this fall.