Choosing Where to Apply

Anna Donovan: Welcome to the first episode of Applying Yourself, our law school admissions podcast, hosted by two staff members from Washington University School of Law in St. Louis. My name is Anna Donovan. I’m the Communications Program Manager in the admissions office, and I’ve been working here for 14 years.

Naomi Stewart: My name is Naomi Stewart. I am a Director of Admissions in the JD admissions office, and I have been working at the law school for eight years.

Anna Donovan: Rock on. Naomi, would you say we’re, like, pretty expert in all things law school admissions?

Naomi Stewart: So here’s the thing that can make you an expert sometimes: we’ve seen a lot of stuff.

Anna Donovan: Seen a lot of stuff — but neither of us has gone to law school.

Naomi Stewart: No.

Anna Donovan: No, we have not.

Naomi Stewart: And I think it’s totally fine.

Anna Donovan: Oh, it is totally fine. It’s great.

Naomi Stewart: Absolutely.

Anna Donovan: We still have tons of information to give to hopefully our billions of listeners out in the world.

Naomi Stewart: Yes.

Anna Donovan: Who all want to go to law school and all, you know, probably want to apply to WashU Law.

Naomi Stewart: Oh, definitely.

Anna Donovan: Excellent. It would be a mistake not to. Trust us — we’re experts. Don’t make that mistake. In our first episode, we’re going to go over choosing where to apply to law school. That is a really good kind of first step. I mean, the first step is you’ve decided you want to go to law school, so now you’re going to start here, figuring out where you want to apply. And we have come up with a few criteria — six, to be exact — to go over of what we think you should be looking at when you’re making your list.

Naomi Stewart: Yes, and so we’ll jump right in. The first one of these is location.

Anna Donovan: Location, location, location?

Naomi Stewart: Yes — and think about it in a lot of different ways. This is where the law school is located, where you would potentially be going and learning for three years. Think about this maybe in different ways from how you chose your undergrad.

Anna Donovan: Maybe you put no thought into where you went for undergrad. Put some thought here into where you’re choosing to go to law school.

Naomi Stewart: I mean, I think that’s probably fair for a surprising number of people — or the thought was only on location for undergrad. That’s something we run into quite often, for sure.

Anna Donovan: This is where I jump in and just do a little plug about how great St. Louis is. For anyone who doesn’t know, WashU Law is located in St. Louis, Missouri. I am a lifelong St. Louisan. I probably will never leave. I think it’s the greatest city on the planet. But, you know, that deep love is because we have so much to offer. That’s part of my job — where I get to convince students that they’re going to love living here for three years. That’s something you want to look for in the location of your future law school.

Naomi Stewart: Absolutely. I have a similar perspective to Anna, but I am originally from San Diego, California, and now I’m a lifetime St. Louisan. One of the things to really think about in location is, for example, that St. Louis is a very blue city in a very red state. There is a lot going on here, which I’m sure we’ve all seen in the news. Everyone can have their own opinion, their own sort of take on these things, but all of these things that are going on are going on through the St. Louis courts, through the Missouri Supreme Court. It’s just a very active city with so many different opinions and viewpoints, and that is certainly represented at WashU. It is a great community to be a part of and to really get involved in and get great experience. So in addition to the food scene being amazing in St. Louis, I also really appreciate all that goes on in terms of work and life and law and all of these things.

Anna Donovan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we really value the fact that you are not from here. So when we talk to our students who come from all over the country and all over the world, you have the perspective of someone who moved here from outside of Missouri.

Something that is super huge — and maybe isn’t always at the forefront of everyone’s mind — is the cost of law school. Yes, it can mean debt for students, but it’s also your investment in your own future.

Naomi Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. The total cost to attend is something to look at. So not just the tuition, but, as Anna mentioned, cost of living, and then also — bringing you back to location — looking at the lifestyle you can have that really can provide balance in where you’re looking at going to law school. And finding ways to cover these costs. So looking at scholarships — that’s our next thing. Is it scholarships that are provided through the school? Is it outside scholarships? And then also non-monetary things of value, whether it’s mentorships or research assistantships. There are so many different ways to get a lot of value from law school that are not necessarily monetary, but can really be part of the picture. So look at scholarships not just as the initial award from your school, but as a really big picture.

Anna Donovan: Absolutely. And one way you can start digging in, if you’re making a list of schools you’re interested in applying to and looking at scholarship, is looking at ABA-required disclosures. These are something that every law school has to put on their law school website. They are going to house both metrical data about scholarships that the schools have given out to their current students and also placement information — post-grad placement. That is one way you can think about how you’re going to pay back any loans that you’ve taken out for law school. Most students do take out some type of loans. It could be federal loans; it could be private loans. Looking at that data of where schools are placing students, making sure they’re getting you where you want to go, but also what type and amount of scholarships they’re giving out, can fill in kind of the overall picture for you.

Naomi Stewart: Absolutely. And placement is such a big part of it — the whole reason you’re going to law school is to practice law, or to have that expertise in some other field you want to go into. So really do your research around the types of jobs students get after attending a given law school, how the school prepares them for those jobs, and the reputation that the school has — maybe within courts and with law firms or with nongovernmental organizations. When you think about your path after law school, there are so many different approaches to the same or similar result. The result you want can be achieved. Law school is the first step in many, many paths to achieving that. So how does the school you’re looking at approach placement? What are their organizing principles around this, and do they match up with yours? Can they help you meet those goals — or develop those goals for yourself, too? Because really, law school is exploratory as well. You do not have to go in knowing where you want to practice or what you want to practice. A lot of that will be discovered in law school. Which really brings us to the next thing that is super important: the community and culture of your law school.

Anna Donovan: Yeah, absolutely. Naomi touched on this a little bit — looking into the support that you are going to receive, certainly through the career center, and how they’re going to get you where you want to go, help you pivot and change your mind on different things, get you to a clerkship, and maybe provide support even after you’ve graduated. And what does that alum base look like as well? The community itself is certainly your academics and your time in school and the support of being in law school to get a great job — looking at summer placement and post-grad — but you also really want to look at your life. You want to think about yourself and how you can attempt to strike a balance. I don’t know if there’s ever really a balance in law school, but doing the best you can in academics and thinking about the longevity of your career, while also having a nice life and doing fun things. Make sure the school is putting resources into getting you experiences or connecting you to students who have similar interests, and student organizations, and using all the free time — you will have free time in law school — for you to have a really nice life for those three years.

Naomi Stewart: It is incredibly important — just because of the expense of both money and time that law school is, and the point in people’s lives where they’re pursuing a graduate degree — that you deserve to and really should get every bit of value out of your law school degree. So it is a valid question: what is the faculty culture like? What is the teaching philosophy? Is it more legal theory? And how does the school approach teaching how to practice law? That is something that is incredibly important in the placement stage: okay, so you learned the theory — can you do the thing? That is important.

Anna Donovan: And can the school provide you the opportunity to be able to put those skills into practice? Absolutely. And tying back to the first thing you talked about — location — what does that city have to offer for you to have an outlet for health, for mental health, for doing the activities you currently like to do, and being able to continue them? That’s part of the community as well. And I think, really, over my years working here, one of the biggest takeaways that people don’t necessarily think about when they’re starting this process for law school is that the takeaway from law school, besides a really great job that you’re excited about, is this community of people — this alumni network, these professional colleagues and connections that you are going to have for the rest of your life. That is it. And making sure — ultimately, these six things we’re talking about — is helping you find the school that’s the right fit for you, so you have the best experience in law school and the best outcome for you outside of law school.

Naomi, I’d like to talk about probably the elephant in the room, which is medians and rankings.

Naomi Stewart: The question we get all day, every day.

Anna Donovan: We’d be remiss if we did not touch on these. Anyone who’s listening is probably waiting until we get to this point. Every law school out there reports their medians, which are the 50th percentile. Typically, they’re reporting LSAT and undergraduate cumulative GPA. Some schools take the GRE — that’s a whole other can of worms. But, you know, the combination of that and U.S. News & World Report rankings are some things that applicants are really looking very closely at in the determination of where they want to go to law school.

Naomi Stewart: Absolutely. And some of this is because the feeling is, “Oh, the ranking gives me a snapshot of all these other things we’ve talked about. It gives me a snapshot of the teaching, it gives me a snapshot of placement, all of those things.” But with 200-plus law schools, you will do yourself a service to really look further than just the ranking into each law school. Because really, the success point for you is going to be what you put into and are willing to get out of your degree. It’s not going to be just the law school itself. So this is a you thing. Look at each school — obviously not every single school — but kind of put your metrics together, look at those 509 reports, and do your research. Call schools, talk with someone to really get a better idea of what that particular school is like, because ranking is an overall snapshot. Just as medians are just one piece of the puzzle — and as Anna mentioned, they’re the 50th percentile mark — also look at the school’s 25th and 75th percentiles.

Anna Donovan: And absolutely, also constantly remind yourself, when you are looking at medians, that maybe it’s a reach for you if you’ve already taken the LSAT, or maybe your GPA wasn’t as strong in undergrad as you had hoped, but you did really well in your master’s program. Twenty-five percent of that class is below the medians. That’s a significant chunk.

Naomi Stewart: Yeah, below that 25th percentile mark — and I mean at or below. We don’t know how every school does it. Maybe that 25th percentile is, I don’t know, but you can really sort of assume that it’s around or below that 25th percentile, and the 75th, it’s around or above that. So look at the whole picture. And this does bring us to something that is important in this whole deciding factor: do not count yourself out. So when you’re researching law schools, don’t look and be like, “Oh, well, I can’t get in there because…” You are a unique candidate, and law schools want to get to know you. I know that’s the philosophy at WashU. We really want to get to know you as an applicant. As far as having a lower undergrad GPA or maybe not being a strong test taker — this is something that is not uncommon. We see it all the time. And what we want to know — and what law schools really want to know — is what makes you unique for this law school journey? How have you been thoughtful about it, and how can that school help you on that law school journey? That’s what they’re trying to determine.

So do not count yourself out, and by extension, don’t count certain law schools out just because, you know, they’re not ranked here or there.

Anna Donovan: Absolutely. Yes, it works both ways. If you can drown out the noise of rankings and importance and prestige, and really think about your goals and your interests — and what they may be right now (maybe they’re going to change) — and definitely if you can apply to reach schools and have the funds to do so, do it. We — and we hope every other law school out there — want to build the best class possible each application cycle, and that doesn’t just mean LSAT and GPA in this kind of straight line across things.

So we talked about a lot of different things. It’s a personal choice — deciding to go to law school, choosing where to go. We’ve outlined a few things, but always, please, do use admissions offices as the resource that they are. If you have more questions, we are always available. Please let us know if you need help seeking out that data, those 509 reports, or if you have questions. I think that applies to every law school out there. Please do your own research, but certainly reach out to those schools to give yourself the most kind of research into these areas to help you choose where you want to apply to law school.

Naomi Stewart: Absolutely. And do think of the application process as separate from choosing where to go, because you can only choose from the pool of schools you’ve gotten into — and every application cycle truly is different. You will hear that throughout the application cycle from many law schools. The reason for that is it’s true. We as law schools wish we had a crystal ball. We wish we could tell you predictive information. We absolutely cannot, because we don’t have it, so we’re not going to lie to you. Really think of applying as different from choosing where to go, because, like I said, you can only choose from where you’ve gotten in.

Anna Donovan: Absolutely. This is the start of your journey. We hope to have some episodes out every two weeks or so, on different topics, kind of taking you through the application cycle timeline. Right now we’re almost at August and kicking off September 1 for our application cycle — and around that timeline for probably a lot of schools. So we will keep rolling out more information to help you as the cycle goes on. Thank you.

Naomi Stewart: Yes — thank you for joining us.