Grant House

Untitled – October 19, 2026

Todd: On this episode, we talked to Grant House. Grant is a former Arizona State University and Team USA swimmer and is responsible for the landmark antitrust case that birthed the college sports NIL economy and reshaped the economics of college sports. Listen to find out how a college swimmer from Arizona State changed the college sports world forever. Grant, first of all, you know. Awesome to see you again. Happy to have you on the on the podcast. And, uh, first of all, before we start, anything you want to say?

Grant: Yeah. I mean, the president of our country said that college NIL was more complex than, uh, global global disagreements across our world right now. So, I mean, it came from the top of the chain. College Nil is complex stuff. It’s heavy-hitting stuff.

Todd: Amazing. Okay. We’re not going to be able to solve any global crises today, but hopefully we’ll at least try to get some, you know, direction on where And I was going and stuff like that, especially thanks to you. So let me just set the stage and explain a little bit about who Grant House is. Um, for those of you who don’t know. So essentially, a couple years ago, really a few years ago now, um, college athletes, it didn’t matter with college athletes who the college athlete was. But if, you know, I’m just going to go back way back in time, let’s say Michael Jordan, for example. So Michael Jordan, who was amazing, the best of all time, I know I’m going to get hate mail, but the best of all time.

Grant: Yeah,

Todd: He was right. The best of all time. I fight with my kids about it all the time. But the greatest Michael Jordan was amazing. He hit the game-winner, uh, you know, in the national championship game. He was iconic. So if Nike, right, Nike at that point, you could go watch movies about Nike and Michael Jordan. But if Nike or whoever was Reebok, Adidas, whoever the shoe brand was at that time wanted to basically say, hey, we want to make a shoe for you. We want we want to have you on, on the packaging or make a Jumpman logo or whatever it is and start selling shoes, right? It didn’t matter even if they said, you know, we’re going to pay you one hundred dollars dollars, five dollars, it wouldn’t have mattered. Michael Jordan would have had to say no. Right? So that’s called name, image, likeness. Have we been talking about that? And that’s how the world basically was for many, many years, right? College athletes were not allowed to capitalize. They weren’t allowed to get any money for endorsement deals. And we’ll just be simple, right? Endorsement deals for a brand using their name, image, likeness. And you see tons of these deals out there now, but essentially a few years ago. Right. And it was a progression. There were a few different lawsuits. We’ll probably talk about some of them now, but there were a few different lawsuits. And, and, and there wasn’t really much change. Right. Ed O’Bannon, UCLA was, was my school last time they won the national championship. Ed O’Bannon, right, and his brother were on the team. It was amazing. Amazing in the nineties, amazing time. But, you know, they weren’t allowed to have any endorsement deals as well. And a few years ago, the person who I’m talking to right now, uh, for reasons that we’ll hopefully talk about, decided, you know what? We need to try to create a situation or change the game in such a way where, you know, Grant you and others like you and really more for others like you, right? Than you. And we’ll talk about that soon as well. Can license their name, image and likeness. And that’s what you see really a huge proliferation of student-athletes in all sports, right? It’s not college basketball or football or baseball, you know, whatever specific, right? It’s it’s all sports now can license their name, image, likeness, but it’s all because of, right? A settlement agreement that’s actually called

Grant: House v. NCAA

Todd: The House settlement, that’s what we have. We have Grant House here. So we’re going to talk about the House settlement. So, Grant, like, tell us, you know, explain to us, right. Again, there’s this world that everybody has lived in for many, many years. I’ll just say one hundred years. Right? And it was never really, you know, student-athletes have become have were, you know, upset about it. Others might have wanted to, you know, use their name and image likeness. Maybe brands wanted to, whoever it was, but nothing really changed. So how did you know? Take us back to, you know, twenty twenty or whatever it is. And you’re a swimmer at Arizona State Cincinnati. You know what changed? What came into your mind? What how did you think you were going to be able to change the world here?

Grant: Yeah, I think it’s even I appreciate the strong introduction, the platform to launch off of here, Todd. Um, and I really think it’s even more important to go back to the very origin story- not my origin story, but the NCAA. The first sanctioned collegiate event was actually a regatta. So I didn’t know what a regatta is. So it’s a basically an event where for rowing. Um, and so it was from our big Ivy schools. Um, a lot of them, I think it was about four to six of them were brought together and it was sponsored by a railroad company at the time. And you weren’t too far off by a hundred years. So it was around nineteen seventeen. And then I think there’s more technicalities of like nineteen forty of like official official. But it was the first event by a collegiate body of humans, young adults competing together. And the reward it was incentivized was a trip sponsored by the railroads and a completely paid-for trip as well after that. So that’s how the NCAA competition in sports was originated. But for me, now launching almost one hundred years later into twenty twenty-one, coming from a background of a very supportive community in Cincinnati, Ohio, I grew up in southeast Indiana. Everything was always about uplifting and seeing the most potential grow in each individual we had, whether it was the coach, whether it was the tenant under fourteen and under eighteen and under whatever it was. We wanted to see the most people succeed possible. And when I came to ASU, Arizona State University in twenty seventeen, that was my similar goal. That’s what I was raised in. That was what my upbringing entailed. And so coming to Arizona State University, the men’s swimming program had just been cut in two thousand and eight. Uh, a fun side story. My most people don’t know is my brother was actually recruited and was taken on a tour around Arizona State. But because they were cut, he wasn’t actually able to go here. So there was potentially another multiverse where there was a long lineage of the House legacy at Arizona State. Yeah. Um, and so fast-forward to my opportunity to take this program to the highest level I could a national championship. And beyond that, international competition, international medals for Team USA, and beyond what I knew at the time. But I wanted to help make this the epicenter of performance for swimming. I believed that it was a beautiful environment. It’s Sunshine’s. There’s palm trees on campus. That doesn’t make any sense to me in the desert, but we have it here. And I just looked at it and I was like, why is why have I never really heard of this swimming program? And it has all this potential. Um, I was told once in high school we used an example called Hercules in the cradle when Hercules is a baby. And I saw that in ASU. And so I just saw this potential. And I felt like if the right people poured the amount of the necessary amount of energy into it, it would just become something incredible. And that became my, my goal, my initiative, and my plan is I went to a high school that had a long legacy of success and excellence and championships at Saint Xavier in Cincinnati, Ohio. And so I knew that roadmap. I knew the protocol. I knew what it took to have national titles in high school, to have state championships, to be the most decorated athlete in Ohio history, to be a part of one of the most decorated swim programs in history. I felt like I had a pretty good idea. I saw my brother do it at the Division two level, um, to where they’re now eight-time national champions for the women’s seven for the men, I think. And then they just transferred into Division One. They were so good. Um, so I feel like I had a pretty good level of excellence. And coming to Arizona State, it started with the team, uh, leading a group of sixty people will say it was give or take some more or less each year. And then the next step was becoming the Student Athlete Advisory Committee president, the SAC president, leading about six hundred college athletes there. And then the next step was being a representative at the Pac twelve level and representing about six thousand athletes there. You know, Pac ten times six hundred per school, give or take a couple of schools here and there, men’s and women’s programs. So around six thousand, it makes makes this journey a little bit better: sixty-six hundred, six thousand. So naturally, after that logical progression of those six, sixty and six thousand, my next jump was, well, how can I impact more people besides my program, besides my school, my alma mater, Arizona State, and besides the aforementioned Pac twelve at the time? The logical step is to, oh, I’ll represent and help five hundred and fifty thousand college athletes. So those were kind of my stepping stones and my proving grounds to get to the point where, how do I make the team as best as I can? How do I make this program get what they deserve? How do I advocate for the athletes at my school and make sure they’re getting all their needs and concerns and problems answered? They all unanimously supported me after the meeting. And so I was like, wow, this, uh, this conference. But also everyone is kind of craving this. Uh, I don’t want to say friction, but this, this push against the norm, the status quo. And when I had the opportunity to help more people, I didn’t see how it would be wrong. I certainly didn’t understand why. I certainly didn’t foresee this many people having a negative backlash on it when it made so much sense to me. But that’s kind of the progression steps as to what I took forward and tried to lean forward and lean into every step as a leader.

Todd: Yeah. So it sounds like just to, just to sort of summarize, like, it sounds like you’re a type of person who constantly, first of all, obviously you come from, from a strong, um, environment of team, like where teams are really important and you really try to uplift people and team and whatnot. So you always. Again, you’re just. The numbers were just growing, but it was all a matter of how can I impact. How can I allow people to grow? The question I have for you, you know, is, and I understand sort of how you got from helping this many people. I could help a lot more people. How did you decide, and how did you think that you could change? By saying, hey, I want to focus on allowing student-athletes to basically license their name, image, likeness. Right. So, like, let me let me explain what I mean. If I was in your spot. First of all, I wouldn’t be, because I’m not a good swimmer. Right? But and I’m not a super athlete, but if I was in your spot, let’s say like I was, I played college basketball. College baseball. Right? I mean, high school, high school. Sorry. Yeah. You don’t have to cut that. But it’s not high school basketball and baseball, right? So let’s say some by some miracle, right? They wanted a, a five, ten, a, you know, a shooting guard. Right. So and I get, I get brought in so I can understand, hey, like I want to influence people. I want to help people. But how did you go from that to thinking? I know that everybody that who’s tried basically for one hundred years to allow student-athletes to write Ed O’Bannon and allow student-athletes to license their name, image likeness has been shut down. So how did you possibly think, hey, I can change things and be like, I want to focus on this, right? There’s other stuff you could have technically focused on.

Grant: Yeah, I think it comes from my experiences of, you know, representing Team USA globally across about at that time, six international competitions and being on ESPN, being on Fox Sports, seeing like the headlines with this and like having that opportunity and like seeing it later and being like, wow, like every kid’s dream growing up, like you want to be on ESPN top ten. Um, certainly not the not top ten, but the top ten and being on ESPN for a highlight reel. And so it was like really neat when I had that opportunity. So it was kind of like resonating in the back of my mind. And to be honest, at the time, I didn’t know the shoulders of the giants I was standing on before. I mean, Shawne Alston was basically developing as I was going into my sophomore junior year of college in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, and then at O’Bannon had been almost about a decade before, if not a little bit more, a decade and a half before I was coming around into my college experience. But I knew the name. I didn’t really know much about it. And as I stepped into these leadership roles, I understood, well, why are they limited here? Why can’t they access this? Why can my dorm mate across the hall make worse music than I? I could, hypothetically, but he makes more money than I do, and I’m doing twenty more hours. Twenty more hours work, more work of than he is as just a regular student. And it just didn’t seem right to me and never connected. It just made no logical sense. I saw no pushback. When I know what it takes to make a national championship team factual. Now. ASU won a national title. Um, mission accomplished on that. But I know what that takes. And now I’ve been a professional swimmer for three years. I’ve trained professional athletes and I’ve been having. I’ve had my internship coaching and helping train professional athletes. I really didn’t see much difference when I saw what they were doing and the college athletes were doing besides, oh, you have to have fourteen study hours and credit hours on top of trying to be the best athlete in the country every single day, or being the best athlete in the MLB every day or in the NFL, whatever it is. I didn’t see much difference between those two people that took it seriously, and people were taking advantage of the opportunity. Yes, but everyone had the same platform, and I didn’t know or understand why. College athletes’ platform should be limited on the ceiling more than any other professional entity, when it was essentially the same thing. And a lot of the under-the-table inner workings and transactions were certainly happening in the same way.

Todd: Interesting. So like, let’s talk about a little about your time at ASU. I’m just just what was it like just being at ASU? Right. Forget nil. Just your experience there. What was what was that like? You know, tell us about it. Because again, I, I’m looking at this. Right. I know sort of what what you mean what you accomplished and all this kind of stuff, but what was just your day-to-day life there before, you know, everything blew up, right?

Grant: Yeah. No, it was, um, twenty-seventeen to twenty-twenty was much simpler times for me. Um, it was just getting a cool new experience away from home. I’d never been west of Texas. Um, ironically, um, up until I went to Arizona State University. So it was a really new opportunity for me to really build on the character development as a young man that I had really had a great platform for in high school to cut you off.

Todd: But if Lewis and Clark, you know, I don’t know if you know you sounds like you went to really good. It sounds like you went to like a really good high school, right? Learning about Hercules. I didn’t learn about any of that stuff in high school. So you obviously went to a good high school. But if, like Lewis and Clark had had stopped off at Arizona State University, they probably wouldn’t have gone any further. Right. So yeah, you probably had a good experience there. I’m just sorry I didn’t.

Grant: Manifest destiny. Go west, young man. Go west.

Todd: All right.

Grant: Everyone’s getting a history lesson here.

Todd: There we go.

Grant: Yeah, but just to just to prove my my stakes as an academic, but, um, it’s, uh.

Todd: So you are, you are a student-athlete or just your student-athlete. If anybody could be called a student athlete, right,

Grant: It would be a college athlete and a student. Don’t be limited by these made up terms from the NCAA. Todd, don’t these these self-created terms. But my experience was really fun and really enjoyable and a new time to experience what I wanted to become as a man. I had all these tools, this great foundation from my high school experience at Saint Xavier, a private Jesuit school. And I really learned and leaned into the Jesuit way of life, a man for others to be and serve others and to help them become better. And so I really had a platform to do that. You know, college is typically not that platform, but luckily I had that catapult to take me forward. And so really, it was just a lot of work and a lot of learning experiences. Monday, Wednesday. Friday. Waking up at five a m in the pool for two hours, going to classes, coming back, trying to squeak in a nap, uh, going to practice in the afternoon, two more hours, my first two years. Then we would go to lift for about an hour and a half and then go to athlete dining, uh, and then get back to our dorm rooms around. Seven thirty-eight, oh, yeah. I mean, my freshman and sophomore year. Monday, Wednesday and Friday were at least five hours of training Tuesday.

Todd: You had a good time though, right? It was, it was fun and not to get. I’m not getting into any like NCAA like fighting. Hey, we’re giving you a free thing. I’m not getting it to. But I’m just saying it sounds like. It sounds like you had a great. You were having like a really good experience, right? It sounds like a really amazing experience. So what? Why? Like what, what, what caused you to say, hey, look, I have a great experience here and we’re going to talk a little bit like people apparently, you know, and I didn’t know this, but apparently there’s backlash against you. I don’t know, it’s like, what got you. Well, yeah. What got you had a really good experience there, right? Sounds like Arizona State. First of all, it’s an amazing place, I know. And you know what? What caused you to say, look, I have this amazing thing going on and I need to sort of fight to try to change things. Like what? What what was, what was that decision about? Like what? How’d that work?

Grant: Yeah, it’s a great question. It was it was due to no inadequacies at Arizona State University. I had a great experience. I’m still out here on year starting year nine. I’m in year eight now, still living in South Tempe and Phoenix area in the Valley. I would say simply the reason is complacency is just not in my DNA. And that’s just simply put, is I saw as you progress as an athlete, you need to progressively overload. You need to challenge yourself in new ways. And as a leader, I saw these opportunities of how, why aren’t athletes getting these opportunities and, and these resources to access when they can have them? They some need them, some want them, some can go chase them. and we deserve to have the least opportunity to go get them, whether you want to or not, or whether you access them or not. It was just we weren’t even able to get into the room. We weren’t able to open the door. And seeing that and not speaking up just felt like complacency and being a lazy, lazy leader.

Todd: And like, so again, this is a new thing to me. You know, in doing some research for the podcast, I was hearing that you were getting some backlash. Like, you know, oh, like, where’s that coming from? And why? Like, why, why do you think that is?

Grant: Um, I think it’s really, I mean, if we want to get like very,

Todd: I don’t mean like, I don’t mean like conspiratorial. So like, let’s just be just completely honest. Let’s be completely honest. Like if you have, if you have a, you know, a program and obviously, you know, the NCAA and the schools and whatever are built a certain way, and there’s a certain model that they’ve been operating. So I understand how they might not be happy with you, but but it sounds like other people are not happy. So like, why, why would that be?

Grant: Yeah. Um, the simplest way I can, I can boil it down to and there’s, there’s many ways to sugarcoat it, but the best way that I, I came to understanding why there was backlash is lack there of education, lack there of willingness to learn and understand a scapegoat and a, and a person that they can point to and say, this is your fault. It’s not actually mine, which were typically the lower people on the rosters for sports: walk-ons or the thirtieth through thirty-sixth options on a roster removal. Um, and so it became two-pronged, really of athletes getting cut for being on a roster that might have been a stretch for them. They could have gone to a better place, gotten more attention, more resources, more opportunity. And they got that opportunity removed from them. Um, and then two lack of education, ignorance of where you’re going to ruin the sport. You’re going to end Olympic sports. They’re not basketball and football. And it’s like, well, they never have been. And every four years there’s no football at the Olympics. So obviously there’s some excitement around the world to have the Olympics. After I visited the Olympic Museum this spring and saw the IOC Museum, like you understand the legacy that sports have. And it’s been a long a long it’s been around a lot longer than the NFL has been, that’s for sure. So it’s like it’s gone through its trials and tribulations. It’s gone through world wars.

Todd: Like we’re gonna see about swimming, specific swimming,

Grant: swimming, soccer, whatever. Tennis,

Todd: right. In other words,

Grant: there’s Olympic sports,

Todd: right? Because there’s a right, because there’s a sort of I don’t want to call it tention, but like, we’re living in a world that’s just changing, like constantly changing. And even the nil, we’ll talk about that. But like even sort of the things that we’re both talking about with nil, I’ve seen personally the realities around them change real quick. So let’s, let’s sort of go through right in some of the, and again, not, I’m not getting into the legal arguments one way or the other, as far as nil or as far as employee. I’m not getting into that. I’m just talking about the landscape, right, to try to get people to understand landscape. So one of the criticisms I guess, people would have had back in the day is, look, you have you have these entire, uh, types of sports, right? So you have football and whatnot. And we’ll call them the revenue sports, quote unquote, right? Like those are the sports at the colleges, you know, in the South, honestly, right. In a lot in the South, other places, some other places to the, you know, the Big Ten and, and the SEC and whatever. But certain certain places, those have been sort of the revenue drivers, right? Like the colleges might make money off those or do make money off those. But then you also have the sports that are not right, whatever. And we could just talk about swimming because we’re talking about it’s, let’s say the swimming, maybe some elite swimming programs might make money, right? But like some don’t. So the, the argument in the past has been look like essentially the way it’s working, right? It’s sort of been a trade off, right? Yeah. The student athletes don’t get paid. Right. And, but the reality is the school sort of equally supports all of these sports, right? That’s sort of the idea. And they’re using using some of the money from the football program to help support the, the, what’s it called, the, you know, the swimming program and the lacrosse or whatever. And if you change the reality and basically cause the schools to have to pay money now, right? Essentially they’re going to have to get that money from somewhere, and they’re going to start cutting programs or spots that are not making them money, right? And therefore, it sounds like you’re getting backlash from people saying, hey, look, like I had a, I had a spot on the swimming team. And because of, you know, we needed money for the football team. They cut the swimming team, right? It sounds like that was some some, you know, of the argument of backlash. But I do want to say something I’ve personally seen. I want to hear what you have to say about this, but I’ve personally seen right, a huge switch about this. What I mean by that is, so we were at a conference, right. And at this conference I saw and I was talking about with last, you know, last guest with Julz about this. And, you know, a lot of these student athletes that are actually like leveraging their name, image, likeness and, and causing like revenue, if anything, to, to, to come to sports are from some of these other sports, whether it be gymnastics, right? Livy Dunne whether it be gymnastics, women’s volleyball and whatnot. So it’s not, we’re not living in a sort of, you know, a black and white world, so to speak, where it’s like either or. Right. There’s all these other opportunities that we’re not, it’s not, hey, if we allow football now, we have to pay for football. So we’re going to cut everything else, right? And I’ll let you talk to that. Right. So both the backlash that’s what it sounds like. But also like the reality of what’s going on is it’s constantly changing. So maybe maybe talk to that a little bit.

Grant: Yeah. No, absolutely. I again, the backlash is easy because it was a tsunami of waves with that. Um, for me, it just stemmed from people being upset, people having an easy target, people being keyboard warriors and how technologically advanced we are in the world. Social media can send a picture, send a message, and then disappear, and you don’t have to face it. But the other person has to has to receive that. Um, and so I remember waking up to three hundred messages on my phone. I remember waking up to one hundred messages on Instagram. I remember two hundred messages on TikTok, whatever it was, I hate you. You’re the worst person. You’re ruining the sport. You’re ruining college sports. You’re the reason I got cut. I, I mean, all the way into death threats. Like it was astronomically, like overblown in my mind of someone just like, all right, I got cut. What happened? Let me learn about this. It was like, no, I heard I got cut because of this. And the coaches had an easy option to. It’s like, I don’t have to hurt their feelings because it was like it was his fault. Right? Like I yeah, yeah. But it’s like, you know, the NCAA made the roster request and the negotiations, as you well know, and your roles of life, every every compromise has negotiations from both parties. Neither side typically gets one hundred percent of what they want. And so it’s a middle ground. So the NCAA asked for these roster limits and that’s what was initiated. The only thing that the firm came forward with initially was just allowing Nil. And then the pushback was, all right, well, we got to limit this a little bit and cut it down. So for everyone ironically mad at me, it’s really what the NCAA introduced. And then the compromise was a scholarship raise. Like swimming went from nine point nine, which why the heck do we have that? And then now they have thirty potential scholarships to offer for thirty spots. Like that’s so incredible boost.

Todd: So just to just so everybody understands, right? Like some of the things you were talking about. So again, there’s a negotiation on both and pretty much in life, there’s going to be a negotiation. Like that’s just the way, that’s just the way it is right there. They’re just the reality is there are sort of arguments on both sides legal arguments, business arguments. There just are. And that’s just the facts. What happens is when you get into a situation and obviously you, you did something, um, effective, right? Where people in the past didn’t, but you really your team and you did something really effective here and there was a negotiation. So initially it was like, hey, let’s cut a bunch of these roster spots to try to save money because we’re going to have to pay X, Y, and Z to these athletes for, for NIL and whatnot, revenue share and anything like that. But the reality, what ended up happening, right, that might have been sort of the first iteration and people might have been mad at you, but it ended up sort of the flip side actually ended up happening where there’s some, some sports got increased, like you said, in swimming, whatever it is. And they, they did get a freeze, right? So you can go look at this, right? The court and whatnot said basically like, look, you can’t basically cut these roster spots. You have to keep a certain amount of roster spots. So it actually ended up having. And that’s why that’s what I’m saying. These things are constantly evolving. Obviously, every people get mad about anything, right? That’s just the reality. But but some of these arguments and that’s why things are evolving so fast, right? Some of these arguments that people were on this side or that side are mad or not mad, like the opposite happened, right? Like I was just right with the roster spots. Honestly, I think it’s going to happen and it’s happening with more scholarships, more. And I think it’s actually going to happen with these other sports, right? Like we traditionally look at football as, as a, you know, revenue sport. You know, there are some schools that it is really important revenue sport. But I think that with the growth of Nil. Right. And when we talk about name, image and likeness, specifically, people care about NIL, especially in the in the, you know, we’re past religious age, but influencer, they don’t call it influencers, but whoever creators, however you want to call them, right? That’s a whole new avenue of value, right? That a volleyball player. And that’s personally what I think the next big sports can be. But the volleyball players. Right You agree? Right? Yeah. Julz didn’t agree with me. But you agree with me about that? I think volleyball, women’s volleyball, is going to be a big right. You agree it already?

Grant: It already is. We the last I think it was within the last two years. Now there’s there’s a second point as well too. And we’re just not acknowledging these blueprints. Nebraska volleyball, I believe, sold out their football stadium for a volleyball event. And the the sales on concessions. So be it. Whatever it was, whether it was snacks, food, alcohol, whatever it is, funded their budget for the rest of the year. That was the report from front office.

Todd: We don’t know if it’s true or not. But but but the point is the fact that they would say that. Right.

Grant: Yeah. And then the second one just happened. And again this was reported from NCAA volleyball. So if it’s false propaganda that’s that’s their game. But

Todd: well, we’re gonna have to cut out all this bad stuff about.

Grant: No

Todd: I’m just gonna tell you, like the you we have to cut out. We can’t like we gotta, we gotta we gotta cut out some of it.

Grant: fine reported from NCAA volleyball account. All right. Publicized, pushed out on on their social platforms. The two biggest ever recorded attendees in attendance records at Wrigley Field. What I believe is one of the oldest stadiums in America for baseball. America’s pastime. Right. When do you think the first one was?

Todd: I have no idea.

Grant: It was to see Jackie Robinson play.

Todd: Oh, wow. Okay.

Grant: The second one. All right, here we go. The second one is all right. There we go. Second one is women’s volleyball. That just happened this week.

Todd: I told you I was just this week. See? See, Billy, I told you. Didn’t I say that last week? You agree, right? Yeah. Billy agrees. I said it last week. I’m telling you, I said women’s volleyball. And Julz Dunne was like, she she she she didn’t want to argue with me because she’s super nice. But like I, I think women’s ball. So the bigger picture here is right? Like the bigger lesson that we have to say here is don’t get mad at Grant House. But the second lesson that we have to say, right, is that some of these things that that people understood are thought like some of the arguments honestly, on both sides, right? That people thought against sort of creating this new reality right there, just evolving. And they’ve actually been proving sort of false, right? Like it’s not, again, sort of football revenue and other sports. We’re seeing all these other opportunities because if it’s used properly again and I don’t think we’re there yet, right. There’s a lot of things that have to change both on this. And I want to ask you about that on the student athlete side and also on the school side, there’s just a lot of things that need to be worked out. Right. And, and if we have the appropriate things that happen, I think it’s just going to cause more opportunities for both the schools and the student-athletes. Right. And especially if you use NIL the right way. So maybe talk about sort of where we are now, what types of things you think and where we could be in a few years if we have sort of the right types of things in place.

Grant: Yeah. No, I think it’s a great, uh, a great split point too, because I think if we continue on the pace we’re at, there’s a very real in five to ten years that the NCAA doesn’t exist just because of how much flash in the pan putting out one fire to set up another one in the forest, like we’re addressing right now. There’s a lot of band-aiding, a lot of symptom relief, but there’s no solutions. And really where I think it’s going is like, there need to be protections and there need to be safety protocols. There need to be health measures put in place for athletes, because now we have this new opportunity, we have these new resources. And when you look at any professional entity, so professional football, hockey, soccer, tennis, whatever it is, these national governing bodies have a national governing players association or union protective measures for the players. And now that we have all this more power, it’s always been there. But now we’re just actualizing the potential. Um, to me, it looks like we need to take those blueprints that we have. They’re all over every professional league, and we need to learn how to modify them, apply them and scale them to the college system, which is much more different because we have twenty-plus sports to consider, not just one. The football only has to worry about football players. That’s that’s great. And they they elect reps and they have reached negotiations and the deals of life that they’re happy with, or at least a majority happy with. College doesn’t have that yet. And so we have just this endless stream of lawsuits coming from every direction at every point, whether it’s a court judge, a state judge, um, from the NCAA, from the conferences, from the school, like whatever it is, it’s just nonstop. That’s the main headline. And we need some system to funnel that out and to decrease that, to synthesize that, to streamline that. And we need to put those in place and start working to get that, rather than just expecting Congress to bail it out because that’s a sticky situation. And then just expecting to do nothing and let it naturally, organically work out. That’s that’s how I prefer see and perceive the future of college sports succeeding the most. Do I have the exact one hundred percent plan to do that? No. But I think it makes too much sense in my mind that we have so many examples that we can learn from, or at least talk with. Like, why are we, why are we not incorporating every player’s association, commissioner or commissioner of their leagues to talk and come together and be like, how can we figure this out? Like, you guys have done it. Why can’t we just brainstorm with them of like, how would we compile twenty sports into that? Whether it’s an umbrella and then silos or whatever it looks like? I think we have to be more creative than we have in the past.

Todd: I hear you say. So from a personal like, personally, I’m not nobody’s opinion other than my own. Like personally, what I see is this college sports, I think is more complicated, right? And I think there are things we can borrow from other leagues. Right. But the reality is, I do think that there’s sort of a fundamental distinction between the two.

Grant: Of course,

Todd: in that like, no, no, no, I know I’m just speaking up for others. There’s a fundamental distinction which complicates things where and I and I believe in this distinction, right. Like the reality is like, if you talk about the NFL or whatever, they’re more, you know, they’re not student athletes, but the college, the college experience, right, is supposed to be right. And I’m not talking about like on a, you know, um, in altruistic situation, right? Like technically you could create a situation where there’s a league for college teams, but it’s not part of the school. Right? In other words, you don’t go to school. But I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about if we want to sort of try to salvage or have a model where you do have student-athletes that have this sort of student-athlete experience, but at the same time, and they play the college sports for their for their schools and whatnot, but also have opportunities. And I think like the NIL opportunity, which I think is a huge thing, right? That’s somewhat what complicates things. And just from a personal perspective, I think that if if if we focus more right on trying to make the dynamics right of the nil part of this, right. And I work, I think that because again, you have to understand it’s sort of like the incentives are, are coming much closer, right? If you have a student-athlete, think about it. If you have a student-athlete, right? Okay, back in the day, right? It was really important for the schools and still important to, to an extent, like you’re, you’re an amazing swimmer, right? And Arizona State wanted you to swim for them. So they gave you a scholarship and whatnot. The truth is, if we let this world sort of grow right where the name, image and likeness of the student athletes become really valuable, right? It’s something that brings another value aspect component to the schools, and they should factor that in. And if they do, I think it aligns the students, sort of like incentives and the schools. And I think there’s a lot more opportunity right, to work stuff out. Right. And I think I agree there’s certain sort of fundamental things we need to get past, but that’s sort of where I see if people really embrace it. And I think it’s happening. Right. If the schools and the student athletes themselves really embrace this and say, look like you’re right, we’re not living in a perfect world, but where we’re at, right? Thanks to you, honestly, where we’re at, we have opportunities now to, to create content and leverage our name, image, likeness and make some money in that regard. Right. And then the schools obviously have opportunities to leverage that, right? I think that the both sides could come to something, a framework that that’s mutually acceptable and beneficial to both sides. It’ll never be perfect. Like honestly, the NFL has lawsuits, right? Like everybody has lawsuits. So you’re never going to get away from that. But you can create a model that works for both sides. And I think again, I’m a big NIL guy. I’m not. Just because that’s what I do for a living. I’m big NIL guy. I’m a big intellectual property guy. I think leveraging that and allowing that world to grow before we kill it in its infancy, that’ll allow both sides. And that’s what I think. Again, that was just my opinion. I hear what you’re saying as well. So if I had to ask you like, what’s one thing that you think um, could really help, right. This college sports world, right? In college sports world grow. What’s one thing that you would change?

Grant: I think we have to understand it from both sides. I thought, I think you said it very eloquently and articulated your your point very well, um, of where we’re at and where we can go. And I think that’s still the friction point. And, and I really like what you said, the infancy of it. I always like to try to have the perspective of, you know, this, this happened, this launched in twenty twenty, but it really was born in twenty twenty-one. and from that point, twenty twenty-one to twenty twenty-five. Um. Last year, June sixth, that’s four years. So NIL is a four-year-old. And then this last year, there was a bigger jump and a willingness because Judge Claudia Wilkins and her and her honor decided that this was a win for college athletes and ruled in favor of college athletes. So from that point on, there’s been a lot less resistance and friction of like, oh, all right, I guess we have to accept this now. So now we’ll, we’ll do some type of minimal effort to move forward. Whereas before it was just fighting, fighting, fighting. But you can either look at it as NIL, five years old, five-year-old child, or really now that we’re like actually stopping the resistance, kind of just one years old. Like it’s, it’s a crazy idea. I know that might sound wild, but when you brought up infancy, it’s one of the things that I point out to people is like, we can’t have everything figured out by now. And just going along aimlessly is just as helpless and ignorant. But we can be working towards a better trajectory than we are right now. And I think that’s that’s the essence of what I’m trying to aim and accomplish and see, see achieved.

Todd: Awesome. Yeah. And just to just for clarity, so Judge Claudia Wilkins is the judge that was sort of that was sort of responsible, so to say, for this settlement that we talked about. Um, a couple of things about that. So yeah, I personally view it as pretty new. The Nil world that we’re living in is sort of new just, just to bring back. So because there were two stages basically, I mean, there’s a little more than that, but there were two basic stages for those who don’t know, right. You definitely know this, but there are those. There were two stages. So essentially at at around twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, when you mention it, right, there was sort of this, um, agreeing agreement, sort of, you know, that the NCAA basically said, look like the schools still can’t pay the student athletes for their name, image, likeness, but will allow these third party sort of collective types of situations to be to collectively license, you know, create third party deals and whatnot. So that was a very limited scope, honestly. And it wasn’t, again, I don’t view it as the environment we live in now at all. It’s that the rules have changed and now the schools can pay the student-athletes, and um, being in this world again, because that’s sort of what I do. But being in this world, I, I’ve seen how things have changed, right? The initial, the initial move when the NCAA sort of changed the rules and these third party sort of collective situations could pay the student-athletes. That wasn’t this real robust marketplace that we have now. And I do think that right now is the beginning of this robust marketplace. And again, it’s really early. It’s really early. Last year was sort of the first real year of it. This year, I’ve already seen a lot of more sophistication and things are changing. I think I think we need to let it again, this is my personal opinion, but I think what could benefit the situation is allowing this marketplace to really develop again. The name, image and likeness marketplace, because I think that’s sort of an area where both you have the schools and the student-athletes aligned on. Right? And if you have them aligned on, again, the incentives are aligned because if I have a quarterback that, you know, is super famous and now my brand, my school brand is much more valuable, right? So that’s an incentive that the school has even for recruiting purposes, right? Like if I Grant, let’s say you were the most famous swimmer in the world, you probably are. But let’s say you’re the most famous swimmer in the world, right? And I have my swim team and I have like Grant House and you’re on Instagram. I’m an old dude. So, so apologies, but I have young kids. So what do people like now? TikTok,Instagram,

Grant: Instagram, Instagram, Instagram.

Todd: Okay. Instagram. Okay, fine. Not Facebook right? Not Facebook.

Grant: No. Definitely not. I’d say Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. If you say one of those three, you’re hitting the mark Todd.

Todd: Yeah, I know Facebook. I said Facebook, I sound old, I know that that much I do know. But so the Instagram, right? Instagram is a big deal, right? So for example, let’s say you’re huge on Instagram, which you might be, by the way, I don’t have Instagram. So you have Instagram, right? You’re huge. Think about that. That’s that’s a recruiting tool, right? You know, young kids now, right? Like you’re, you’re pretty young, but there’s way younger kids now that are coming up. It matters to them, right? Like if you have these kids in high school, you think about these kids, you’re training and we’re talking about that in a minute. But like, if you, if they know, hey, I don’t even know famous swimmers from the past or Olympic swimmers, but I know Grant House has a cool Instagram where in every Sunday, you know, he’s sitting at his pool at Arizona State making crazy TikTok videos. I want to go to Arizona State. Right. Talk talk about that. Right. It’s true. Right.

Grant: I literally have people come. So for anyone who doesn’t know, I’m a big science guy. My undergraduate was exercise physiology and also double major in human nutrition. I changed in my graduate course to be a better leader for the lawsuit and to sports law and business at the Sandra Day School. Sandra Day O’Connor School of Law at Arizona State as well. And my, my, my handle on most of my social media is mitochondria underscore house.

Todd: Oh my gosh, you’re really smart. I knew it. So the Hercules thing was it wasn’t a fluke. That was like a real thing.

Grant: Yeah. No, that’s that’s not a I’m happy you didn’t.

Todd: I’m happy you didn’t pull this out till now. Because I’m not going to be able to hang with you if you start with all this mitochondria. I don’t I got, like, terrible grades in school.

Grant: No, it’s it’s all good. But it was it was always just like a simple, funny thing to me. Like it’s ingrained in science. Mitochondria is one of the biggest important

Todd: powerhouse, right? It’s the powerhouse, right?

Grant: The powerhouse of the cell. So everyone has the fourth grade biology class.

Todd: Yes.

Grant: Everyone knows what it what it gets called by the professors and teachers. Um, and growing up, my, my siblings always used to refer to me as powerhouse. So I thought it, I thought it was a good one. But I lay that platform to say I’ll have, I’ll have kids. They’re like fourteen to eighteen. So some, I don’t know, they’re kids. I’m twenty-eight now. So these kids will come up to me and they’re like, oh my gosh, are are you mitochondria? House. I’m like, well, I’m Grant House. But yeah, that is my tag. And they’re like, I love your content. You put out about swimming and like the cool sets and workouts and then like the videos underwater that you do. And I’m like, this is crazy. Like, I only, I only, only I’ll say this if they’re in a room, it would be big. Like I think it’s fourteen thousand people on Instagram followers. But it’s like, if that was in the room, you’d be like, wow, this is an incredible amount. And it doesn’t feel like that because it’s social media. But these younger kids are like, I mean, stopping me and saying hi. And they’re like, wow, dude, I love your content and stuff. It’s like, wow, dang.

Todd: Like I just, I just changed the whole world. Like,

Grant: but yeah, you love like swimming,

Todd: you like my mitochondria, like, yeah, like I’m my mitochondria videos, but I’m saying, but, but that’s what I, that’s what I’m trying to say like that. If the schools and the student-athletes like embrace that new reality, right? And let it grow, right? That’s, that could be powerful, right? That could be powerful

Grant: without a doubt.

Todd: And I look, I have seen, um, I have seen that happen, like to different differing degrees. Right. Like every I know, I know you’ve talked about this and you know, you’ve had your experience for sure. And honestly, like I would like to keep going with you, but if you have to go, let me know. Um, so you’ve had your experience for sure, but the reality is not every school is the same. Like every school is different and some schools are more sort of, um, interested in this side of it. Some schools are more checking the box side of it. Like every school is just a little different. And honestly, that’s, that’s the reality. But I think this is sort of, this is sort of the area that where, where once the market develops and there is such a, you know, the new thing that protect College Sports act and Congress, the Senate, like they’re trying new things. Um, and interestingly, and I’ll give you a pat on the back, but it looks like both, whether you talk about the the act from Congress or now the Protect College Sports Act, it looks like for the most part, they’re basically just trying to concretize. And there are a few differences, but like concretize sort of the settlement that that you reached, right. Like that’s, that’s a lot of what this is about.

Grant: Right. Is that have you been that’s my understanding. That’s how I’ve educated and my understanding of it. I feel like it takes different turns every day, but I feel like that’s that you put up the good guardrails on that.

Todd: Yeah. It’s amazing. So think about it. Not only did you look when you started this journey X amount of years ago, right. And, and the world changed. And, you know, thanks to you, the world has changed. And there’s a lot more, you know, opportunities for student-athletes and for schools as well. Right? And there’s challenges, obviously on both sides, but this framework that’s come out has has become, again, a framework that, uh, is, is creating sort of a future for college sports. There are things that have to be worked out. But I do believe that this framework, you know, a lot, there’s a lot of critics about different parts of things, but this framework is really something that creates a sustainable, a sustainable sort of reality. As soon as you work out a few of the different sort of things and allow this marketplace to grow, to grow and really, uh, you know, concretize, so to speak. So, uh, Grant, uh, maybe any anything else to, to say, any last things, what you’re up to now, what you’re looking forward to, uh, where your Instagram handle is, is that right? Handle? That’s what you say.

Grant: Yeah. Yeah, you got it.

Todd: All right.

Grant: I mean, yeah, I think, I think hitting a couple of targets you talked on, um, I think some extra additional points, uh, the bonus points I want to talk about is, you know, I think there are like a lot of positives that this is your, your word. Concretizing. I got to check that one out.

Todd: There you go. Okay. That’s a word ,I make up words as we go along. Nobody knows the difference.

Grant: Yeah. Um, patent that you got to patent that.

Todd: Amazing.

Grant: But for me, it’s like, you know, you’re seeing people and typically in other sports right now, like like football and basketball. Yes. Um, but I think it stems into every sport too, if they want to go to professional and the professional route of an athletic journey and career. There is a consideration point now of like, you know, for football, the rookie minimum or the rookie maximum, I think for your contract can be lower than a contract you can get. And so in turn, yeah, yeah, we’ve seen that a couple times now. And so in turn, in my eyes, maybe this is the, I don’t know, the growth mindset looking into me that requires an athlete to get another year of education they otherwise would have passed up on. And that’s something I think we’re not looking at enough. We’re just like, well, they’re not going to care because they’re getting paid five million. It’s like, if you got paid five million dollars, wouldn’t you maybe change your mind on doing something? So I think that’s another positive aspect. I think also as well to like these opportunities just with social media, it can be an intentional like explosion of positivity. It can be an unintentional explosion of positivity of like viral moments. That’s what the internet and the technology allows us to have. Now you can have someone that is a first generation college college student for their family, regardless of athletics. Going to college and then competing in athletics and social media could change their life forever. They could support their family forever. It could secure or at least provide better backing than anyone in their family ever has before. So I think there are some nuances that people aren’t looking into as much or considering. And I think that’s that’s something that’s more impactful and more valuable. Like, do we really want to think about all the negatives? Or do we want to spend time thinking about like the strengths and the positives and thinking about how to grow those? So that’s something I think I really want to work on. Like, and it’s important to like, really emphasize a lot on opportunities like this. And what I’m doing right now is I’m basically starting my own performance consultation. I’ve kind of identified the areas that I’ve excelled in as an athlete performance, performing at the highest levels as I feel like a leader, as an athlete and as a coach. And I’ve helped, I’ve grown. I’ve developed from the age group program into even the last eight years of my life. Every year I’ve had a best time and continuing perform.

Todd: That’s incredible.

Grant: Thank you. I understand athletic development. I understand long-term athletic development. I understand science as we covered it already.

Todd: Yeah. There we go.

Grant: Exactly. And so I know the experience I’ve gone through it of building the relationship and the results at each of these stages. And it’s four prong of the age group development, youth development. I’ve had a chance to work with over one hundred professional athletes and over fifty Major League Baseball athletes.

Todd: Amazing

Grant: And then I’ve had a couple like executive and business consultations of just like people that want to lower their like AC one, their blood sugar and increase their, increase their testosterone or lower their cortisol or have better markers for sleep or how to have better habits and like hobbies and activities and really their routine and schedule. When I’m a CEO and I need to be better for my kids, my family, myself as well too. Um, and that gets put on the back burner a lot. And that’s my third prong. And then the fourth one is ultimately why we connected at the athlete event. Um, but speaking with universities get embedded at universities and law programs more, to connect. And really the two pronged approach, I guess it’s three prongs. Um, just being on the narrative of ASU with a pitchfork. Um, yeah, it’s basically. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Todd: Sun Devil,

Grant: Sun Devils and, uh, basically trying to help the athletes. Um, the most engaging conversations have come from the law school and then really delivering something and supplying the universities with better products and better resources. So what I mean by that is, you know, devices or products that will help the athletes connect with brands or companies better and more streamlined and more effectively referring, uh, better resources like attorneys and financial advisors that I’ve seen or worked with and I’ve gone through my trial and errors is that they don’t have to go with them, but at least exposing the athletes to these resources of someone that I at least trust, I learned financial literacy from, I respect or I spoke on panels with for their understanding and expertise in reviewing contracts, agency their time as an attorney, whatever it may be, but presenting a more viable option of someone who’s more intentional in that process. And then something I’m developing right now, um, that I’m not maybe when I come on for my second episode, I’ll have more concrete to expand on, but an opportunity to really stimulate and expand on a direct correlation and pipeline to the alumni system for every program in every school. Um, if we’re talking about like true NIL benefit, so it’s basically trying to impact the athletes as much as I can to give them as best resources, supply those resources to the university. And then after you graduate, creating a pipeline for alumni to give back to that program. And once we have that system, I mean, staying on the biology thing, everyone knows the system.

Todd: Yeah. There we go. Yeah. Everyone knows the rain cycle. Everyone knows the water cycle. You’re saying you’re saying everyone. I think you’re judging a lot of people too highly like I don’t, but, uh,

Grant: It’s just this, this, this, this loop and this circle that that feeds itself and feeds back into itself. And I think getting the opportunity, like we talked about earlier in the podcast, there are some universities that are willing, some that aren’t. Um, but I’ve learned that having these, these, this gratitude and these opportunities to speak at the law school, I’m trying to utilize that to get closer and to impact the athletes on a better stance. Um, so through my performance consultation, the House of Impact, uh, I’m working on making, trying, trying to make a positive impact on those four pillars, um, that I’ve really identified in my life that I’ve had the biggest impact that I’ve learned the most, I’ve built the best relationships and I’ve had the best results at, at every level. Youth development, going through college, setting high school records, setting state records, setting records for high school athletics, um, national titles, what have you. College development into that college National titles. International success. Pro athletes helping their contracts improve five million dollars, giving them the best years they have on their power output, their batting average, their run production. Um,

Todd: so you’re saying you’re saying if I would have reached out to you earlier, I could have really made I could have made the majors. You could have. You could

Grant: I mean to me there’s potential there. I have the track record to prove it. I can’t say it’s not possible. I’m not going to put a limit on you, Todd,

Todd: I don’t know. I don’t know if maybe if they would have had nil back in the day. I could at least made it on that on that front, you know, they could have named my name, image, likeness. Put on all the Wheaties boxes.

Grant: Yeah.

Todd: Where could, where could they, where can people reach you and say, look, you’re, you’re offering a lot of, a lot of amazing services and opportunities for people, right? And there’s a lot of people that would be interested. Where can people reach you for your help?

Grant: Yeah, the best way to reach me right now, I’m working on finalizing my website soon, but for right now, the best way to contact me is on my email and on socials. Um, my email’s house dot grant twenty twenty at gmail. I’ll send Todd this so he can put it out and Billy can put it out. And then on social media’s pretty much I’m aligned on all of them now. It’s mitochondria underscore house, X uh, or formerly known as Twitter. I still think it’s funny. Um, but it’s house the mouse, so I’m not as active on that lately. Um, but you can kind of engage

Todd: So X/Twitter’s out. That’s, that’s out.

Grant: I wouldn’t say it’s out. I don’t want to bash it, but I just haven’t been on it as much. I haven’t seen as much success in it. And I’m a big ROI guy. So I got to get my return on investment. So, um, right now

Todd: and your cell phone is two one three five five five five five five five.

Grant: Yeah.

Todd: Back in the eighties that was every yeah. By the way, back in the eighties. You don’t know this because you’re too young. But back in the eighties, like every movie when they would have a number that would be the number, just FYI, two, one, three is old school LA area code where I’m from, and it would always be five five five five five five five. I don’t know if there’s really a number like that, so we’ll probably scratch this. And it’s definitely not Grant’s number. So if you call that number, uh,

Grant: prize reward for the for the listener who calls in on that and gets a voice recording. Exactly.

Todd: Okay.

Grant: But, uh, but yeah, those are the best ways. Um, I’m biggest on LinkedIn right now. I think that’s my number one social, social platform,

Todd: That’s social media. So then I do have social media.

Grant: Oh yeah. LinkedIn is all the rage. Todd. The kids don’t know it.

Todd: That’s all the rage.

Grant: I mean, it’s where, yeah, it’s where you make the, the biggest impacts, I think in some regards. So it’s been great for me. But yeah, Instagram or LinkedIn, LinkedIn’s just @granthouse. You can find it. Uh, there’s a sharp profile picture now and a dazzling background profile picture. I like it.

Todd: Okay, so just to recap what we learned today, be nice to Grant House. He didn’t cause all your problems, right? That’s number one. That’s the most important thing.

Grant: Yes

Todd: The second thing is, again, we believe, right? I could say we collect the collective. We believe that this whole new NIL world that Grant helped create is in its infancy. And we need to give it a little bit of time to, to try to develop. And it could hopefully be positive. I mean, it’s already been positive. Uh, you know, we talked about some of the positive things again for many, many, many years. Right? Like some of these leagues had tried to try to have student-athletes stay longer, right? They didn’t want them bouncing after after the, you know, a freshman year or sophomore year. And now you have an incentive for them to keep to stay stay in college. So there’s a lot of positives. But if we give it a little more time, if we emphasize the right things and sort of create and align the incentives, which I think is happening, hopefully, uh, what the lawsuit that goes by your name and this settlement that goes by your name, uh, hopefully change this entire. Well, it already did, but hopefully it changed the entire, uh, sport, student athlete sports, college landscape for the better. And, uh, Grant, man, I really appreciate it. It was awesome to have you. Thank you for going over. I know you’re you’re super busy. I appreciate it. Um, and yeah, definitely, I definitely will call you. Hopefully it won’t be the next episode. Hopefully we’ll get another guest for the next one. But sometime in the, in the, in the future.

Grant: Yeah. I’d love to be back on. I’d love to be there in person to for oh

Todd: yeah, Saint Louis. You want to come to Saint Louis for sure. Yeah.

Grant: And the live podcast too.

Todd: And you’re welcome to my class. Come to my class for sure.

Grant: Beautiful, beautiful, good set up there. And I encourage everyone, my, my last tip of what to review is just be curious. Um, don’t feel bad if you don’t know something. There’s probably a lot more people that know less than you and just continue to educate yourselves. That’s the only way we all get better. And that’s the only way that we continue to move forward best. And just, just be curious, if you don’t know something, seek out the answer or look for an answer or ask questions. I think that’s, um, a forgotten art in this day and age, especially from my peer group and below. Just being curious and trying to educate yourselves.

Todd: Amazing. All right, Grant, well, thank you so much. I appreciate it, man. Good to see you.

Grant: My pleasure. Todd, thanks for having me on. Thanks a lot.

Todd: This was the Washu Law Sports and Entertainment podcast hosted by Todd Davidowitz and produced and engineered by Billy Gutierrez. Find us on Spotify and YouTube, and you can contact us at sportsandentertainmentlaw@wustl.edu