Legal Tech at WashU Law

Anna Donovan: Welcome back to Applying Yourself a law school admissions podcast from Washington University School of Law. My name is Anna Donovan, and I’m a director of admissions here at the law school. And I’m thrilled to welcome back a repeat guest today on our episode. Dean Stefanie Lindquist, the inaugural Nickerson Dean, who has just entered her third year here at the law school.

The last time we had Dean Lindquist on the podcast was a little over a year ago for a kind of get to know you episode, and we’re excited to have her back and go a little more in-depth and talk specifically about her passion for student access and education in legal technology and AI. Welcome back, Dean Lindquist.

Dean Stefanie Lindquist: Thank you, Anna. It’s nice to be here.

Anna Donovan: We are thrilled to be turning the corner on our third annual Legal Tech Week here at the law School, which is an amazing slate of in-person and virtual events here at the law school, some of which are taking place in conjunction with Washington University’s AI Perspectives Week. I was just notified earlier, and as I was looking at the incredible website for both Legal Tech Week and the AI Perspectives Week is is actually 40 events taking place over the next month here on campus, which is very exciting and we get to be a small part of that.

In addition to bringing outside speakers and panelists to campus. The series here at the Law school is able to engage students, faculty, alumni and staff from across the university as well. And WashU Law Tech Week is an exciting opportunity to explore, to explore how legal technology and AI are shaping the future of legal education and the profession. Dean Lindquist, since becoming Dean, you’ve been passionate from day one about creating opportunities for students to learn and engage with legal technology and AI in and out of the classroom.

Anna Donovan: Can you talk a little bit about what drives your passion and why it’s so important to you?

Dean Stefanie Lindquist: Sure. Well, I like to say about artificial intelligence and large language models that large language models are built on language rights and on precedent. That is, that it is existing language in databases and texts, etc., throughout the world that actually drive artificial intelligence. And when you think about the practice of law, it is built on language and precedents.

And so it’s not a surprise. And we shouldn’t be surprised that artificial intelligence is going to shape and change the way that we practice law going forward and build in really significant efficiencies for practicing lawyers all around the world. And so that is readily apparent for any law school then has a duty to ensure that its students and future lawyers that it graduates are well prepared for that reality.

And so that has been my passion is to think about how this disruptive technology will disrupt the way that lawyers practice law, The bespoke model of a lawyer and his client sitting down in front of a fire talking about legal problems is really going to become a rarity. And how lawyers engage with clients is going to be much different than that going forward.

I want our students to be well prepared for that.

Anna Donovan: Excellent. I do too. I love that. Thrilled to be able to engage some of our prospective students in some of the events that we have coming up for a legal tech week. I, you know, is a very, very hot topic right now. As one of you talk a little bit about WashU Law’s philosophy on preparing students or any thoughts you have just on the evolving fields that’s coming at us.

Dean Stefanie Lindquist: Yeah. Well, I in my mind, the way I think about it is that it essentially has four pillars. And if any one of these pillars is neglected, I think a law school is is failing really to prepare students fully for understanding its impact. The first is how does a large language model actually work? How is it built? I think everyone needs to understand at least the rudimentary basis for the technology because again, it is so transformative for so many professions.

So first, I think we need to help students understand the technology itself. I always call it what’s under the hood, what is under the hood for a large language model. And in fact, at WashU, we actually hired a a large language model engineer on our staff who can help us on the faculty and the students and the staff work with this technology and work directly with an engineer.

So he’s great to have with us. So the technology is important. Secondly, the tools, what does the technology drive relative to tools that can help lawyers practice law? So we need to be sure that our students are exposed to the key tools. And really, as far as I’m concerned, any tools that a student wants to learn from wants to learn about is a step forward in the right direction because the tools share various characteristics.

They all rely largely on large language models, and they’re all trying generally speaking, in the area of legal tech to solve lawyers problems and help lawyers practice law more effectively and efficiently. So we really welcome legal tech companies into the law school to help our students understand how their tools work, so the tools. The third is the ethical considerations.

So looking at the outputs, we all we talk about statistical models, we always say it’s garbage in, garbage out. If you put garbage in, you’re going to get garbage out in terms of statistical modeling of data. And same is true for for large language models and AI. If you don’t know how to craft a prompt, well, and if you don’t know how to evaluate the output from the tool, then you are putting garbage in and you are basically taking garbage out.

And so we want to make sure that you know what it is you’re producing. You have the first the the, the critical thinking skills to understand in the knowledge of the law. But secondly, appreciate the ethical dimensions of evaluating AI output. And then finally, the fourth pillar in my mind is regulation. How are we going to regulate this technology?

And lawyers should have a very prominent role there, obviously, since we have such a major role in government. And the news this week from employees of major AI tech firms has indicated that people are leaving those firms because they’re so fearful of the consequences of AI for human or for mankind and our species. And it’s not a laughing matter, really, I don’t think, although we can giggle a little bit about it since we’ve all seen the movie The Terminator.

So we really need to think about regulation. And I think we need to teach students about how A.I. should be regulated and how it will affect also how it will affect areas of practice. So tort law is going to change a lot when you have a self-driving car, it’s a lot different than a car driven by a human.

Anna Donovan: Mmhmm. Absolutely. What do you think lawyers and law students and probably prospective students often misunderstand about AI and its role in the legal profession?

Dean Stefanie Lindquist: I think I think sometimes there’s a there’s a deep fear that’s artificial intelligence. First, I think there’s a fear that it will replace lawyers. I think that is very likely untrue. And I say this from experience as a social scientist. So my background is in political science and I consider myself somewhat of a of a statistician. I know how to calculate a regression model by hand if I want to. It’s very tedious and time consuming and sometimes overwhelmingly technical. So I use software to analyze data. We all do, and we use an Excel spreadsheet or anything else. We use software to analyze data. That has not short circuited the need for me to understand statistics, to understand the various models, to be able to interpret them when they’re produced.

And I think the same will be true for artificial intelligence and lawyering. It will help us work faster, perhaps, but we still have to understand the law. We have to understand how to interpret cases, the critical thinking that’s involved in that, and then evaluate the output and know whether or not what we’re producing for our clients using AI or with the help of AI, is a is a proper reflection of the law and the facts in that client’s set of circumstances.

And so I don’t think it’s going to replace lawyers. I think it’s going to make us faster and perhaps better. And and so I’m I’m not in the camp. There are some who think so. I don’t think so. I always say, though, that lawyers who know how to use AI effectively will replace those who don’t. And that’s part of the reason we are so focused on it at WashU.

Anna Donovan: Absolutely. You know, for our prospective student listeners, I’m wondering if you have thoughts on what they should be asking other law schools about how they’re approaching legal technology and AI.

Dean Stefanie Lindquist: Yeah, I would ask them whether they are really addressing the four pillars I mentioned, because I think those four pillars, the technology, the tools, the ethics and the regulation, those four things are really, to me, the critical elements in any comprehensive education about AI and the law should include those as well as the way that A.I., as I mentioned, is actually going to be a making or affecting doctrinal evolution in various areas of the law, such as tort law or contract law or IP, and especially. And if the law school’s not doing all of those things, then that student should come to WashU.

Anna Donovan: Absolutely everyone should apply and consider WashU for their legal education. As I mentioned up top, we are getting ready to host the third year of Legal Tech Week. And I was wondering if you talk about how these events come together and how you and some of the leaders across campus choose the topics and choose the speakers.

Dean Stefanie Lindquist: Yeah, well, we try to we realize that artificial intelligence is going to affect multiple constituencies that we have. So it’s going to affect students, staff, faculty and our alumni and practicing lawyers. And we owe a duty to our alumni and to practicing lawyers to help them develop the skills and understanding that they’ll need because they didn’t graduate from law school last year, this year in the coming year.

But but ten years ago, before we even knew what that artificial intelligence was going to have, the impact that it is having. And so we owe them a duty to. And so Legal Tech Week is a way for us to reach our alumni and our lawyer audiences everywhere. Many of these or some of at least I think most of these events are are recorded so that we can be sure that everyone has access to the content and we think about our constituency.

So some of the some of the panels are really focused on law students and their experience and legal education. Some are focused on how to retool to for practicing lawyers and our alumni. We we develop the program. Some are focused on faculty and faculty research using AI or that’s focused on AI regulation. So we’re really put them together based upon who we’re trying to reach.

And we have developed a really strong network all over the place globally within legal tech companies, among our alumni, practicing lawyers, managing partners, chief innovation officers all over our offices of General Counsel, really all over the world, many of whom serve on our advisory board, our AI advisory board. And so we talk to them about who we should invite and find people at the cutting edge of law and legal tech to come talk to our students and to our faculty, staff and alumni.

Anna Donovan: Yeah, excellent. And I am excited to attend some of these virtually, here in the building and across campus as well. We love to end our podcast with questions and talk about Saint Louis a little bit. With Fall almost here though, you really wouldn’t tell be able to tell by the weather we’re having today.

Is there anything particular you’re looking forward to do in the city in the fall?

Dean Stefanie Lindquist: Well, I love, two things, and one is that I love beer, IPA and Saint Louis is a great beer town, so I’d like to visit more of the breweries in Saint Louis and get to know them better because I’m sort of a connoisseur for for IPA, which I discovered about five years ago and now it’s it’s pretty much the only kind of form of alcohol that I drink, not too much of, I do it in moderation.

And then the second thing is this summer I was I was out of town getting married and on honeymoons and things like that. And I didn’t get to play golf in Forest Park and just driving past the golf course today, and it’s just beautifully maintained. And so I can’t wait to get the clubs out over the coming weekends and play some golf after the heat abates a little bit.

Anna Donovan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I cut through the park every day on my way to work, and I see golfers out there come rain or shine. And it’s really incredible to see.

Dean Stefanie Lindquist: Just walk across the street from the university, if you happen to have your clubs on wheels, just walk right on to.

Anna Donovan: The course. That’s right. It’s very, very beautiful to behold. Forest Park, indeed. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Dealing. QUEST And if anyone would like to participate in Legal Tech Week or any of the events happening, registration is open and you should check out the website for anything happening here at the law school or across campus and hope that everyone takes advantage of the access to these amazing events.

So thanks so much.

Dean Stefanie Lindquist: Anna, thank you so much for all you do in admissions. You’re a wonderful team. Thank you. Appreciate it.