LLM Alumni Discuss Student Experiences

Frank: Hello, everyone. My name is Frank, and I’m here with —

Wumi: Wumi.

Frank: And today we’re going to be talking about our personal experiences and professional experiences, and we hope you take a few things out of our conversation. So I’ll start by asking the first question to Wumi: What drew you to law? How did you finally end up in the legal profession?

Wumi: I’ve always known that I’m not a STEM girl. I always knew that if I was doing anything, it would be in the humanities and the arts. So right from secondary school, I knew I wasn’t going to do anything STEM or business. I was just going to humanities.

And then when I had to pick my choice in uni, I was just like, “Okay, what can bring me — not necessarily the most money — but what can I do to really make my future bright in this humanities field?” And then my dad was like, “You should just try law.” So I started doing law in uni, and then eventually I liked it. I liked criminal law. I liked the whole reading-cases thing — everything about the legal field.

And then I started listening to a lot of podcasts, like Criminal Minds podcasts and all of that. I listened to this podcast called Junkie, and it really tells you a lot about the legal system and everything. So with all of that, eventually I knew I liked it.

Frank: That is very interesting to know that you had to listen to podcasts to decide. That is very interesting. For me, my parents asked me what I wanted to do when I was in high school, and I told them I wanted to study law. And maybe because I had an elder sister who also studied law, that might have influenced my decision.

But when I got into the university for my LLB degree in Nigeria, I kind of liked the program. I was drawn to it. I loved reading and research. I saw that it came out very naturally for me. And I knew at that moment — at that time, rather — that I did not make the wrong decision in terms of choosing what I wanted to study.

I think when growing up, you hear the whole “if you can argue, then you should be a lawyer” kind of narrative. And I think I was pretty good at arguing, but…

Wumi: Well, on my side, I was pretty good at making peace. I wanted everyone around me to be peaceful. I wanted things to be calm. So maybe I’m coming from the resolution aspect, and you’re coming from the litigation aspect.

Frank: Yeah. So what was your law school experience like in Nigeria compared to here in the U.S.?

The system in Nigeria is such that we have to go to undergraduate, which is university. We have to get a first degree for five years, which is called the LLB degree, or the law degree. And after that, we have to go to law school for one year to take the bar exam — which is different from the law profession here, or the legal education here in the United States, because here you can come from any background and then go straight to the JD program and then get the law degree.

So back in Nigeria, the system was different in terms of the undergraduate level that I mentioned. It was not similar in terms of the content for some courses, like contracts and criminal law. Obviously, the codes were different, but the principles were majorly the same. The principles were the same, the exceptions to the rules, the rules — they are the same.

Now, having gone to law school in Nigeria for one year — okay, so before, preparing myself for the bar, which I took and passed in Nigeria — I would say that the law school system here that I experienced for my one-year LLM program is similar to the Nigerian law school system, because that is where I learned we have to read before class. They give us materials that we read, and then we come to class and the professors ask us questions before we start going to other areas in the class.

So that aspect of the Nigerian law school is similar to the teaching method here in the United States. That is the only similarity, but in terms of the undergraduate level in Nigeria, it’s a bit different. The structure and the teaching method are a bit different.

Wumi: I think I’m going to talk about the living experience. So I lived on campus, both in my undergrad and in law school. I lived on campus, so our classes were walking distance to the residence and all of that. I wasn’t working — I was just going to school. But here, I was working. I had to use the bus. It was a lot.

I think sometimes I also felt like, “Okay, this is a lot for me,” like —

Frank: Overwhelming?

Wumi: Yeah. So sometimes it was different in the sense that, back at home, it was a lot easier to just know that I’m only reading and only focusing on my schoolwork — but here, there are so many things you have to juggle.

Frank: I can relate to that, too, because as a student in Nigeria, I was not working. All the money that I needed was provided by my parents, for my accommodation and everything. But here, I find myself working and at the same time studying. So I had to put on so many different shoes for different occasions. It was a lot.

Wumi: And we had no bills also, so it’s just — I think that’s the difference between undergrad and graduate school. So graduate school is a lot — you actually have things you’re doing apart from school.

So, was your previous uni as international as WashU Law?

Frank: I would go back to my undergraduate degree. It was not as international as WashU Law, because that was in Nigeria. But then, when I finished my education in Nigeria and I moved to Europe, I studied in Hungary. I did my first master’s in European and International Business Law in Hungary.

I would say that the setting, in terms of the culture of the educational community, is similar to what we have here at WashU, because the structure and everything is quite the same — Europe and here in America. So I would say that that also gave me a kind of exposure to what I have experienced here in the United States.

Wumi: I’ve only schooled in Nigeria before, so everyone looked like me. There wasn’t really much diversity. So here, there are a lot more diverse people, a lot of people that you meet, and I think that’s something I’m grateful for here at WashU Law.

Frank: That is very important to note. And one more thing I want to ask is: what would you say was a culture shock for you when you arrived in America first, and then when you arrived to study? Because I know you have been to the United States several times before you eventually came to WashU to study as a student. What would you say was your culture shock when you arrived to the United States, and then when you started studying?

Wumi: Okay. I think my first culture shock was — in Nigeria, we’re very big on respect. If you want to call someone, you’d be like, “Mrs. A, Mr. B,” you know — but here you can just call people by their first name and they’ll be fine. They even tell you, “No, don’t call me Mr. V — just call me B.” That’s something that was like, “Okay, this is not something I’m used to.”

Or even saying, “Good morning, sir,” “Good morning, ma’am” — they’re like, “What are you talking about? Just say hello.”

Frank: Okay. So now, back to the study aspect — what was the culture shock for you in terms of coming to study?

Wumi: I think the biggest culture shock was the office hours. That’s not something we have back home. You can’t just show up to your professor and be like, “Listen to the question I have.” So here, you can just show up and be like, “Oh, I have this issue. Can you go over this question with me?” And they’ll be more than happy to sit down with you. So I think that’s something that was very different coming here.

Frank: You have those resources available to you at WashU.

Wumi: Yes, exactly.

Frank: That is a pretty good thing about WashU, because the professors are very accessible. You can always ask questions, send emails, and they’re very quick to respond.

So, for me, my culture shock in terms of studying here in the United States — not WashU specifically — was the fact that I had to type my answers during exams. I had to use a laptop to type my answers. Back in Nigeria, we still love our pen and paper. We write our exams. It’s reading — but having to learn how to type my answers in an exam situation, and also working on increasing my typing speed — I would say that that was a huge culture shock for me.

Wumi: Yes, because we rarely ever typed. We were just like, “Paper, write.” I remember my first exam here at WashU. It was the foundations class — the first class you have during the orientation. After the exam, my friends were like, “Oh, where did you put the objective multiple-choice questions?” And I was like, “Oh, I just typed it.” And they were like, “No, there’s a place for the multiple choice.” And I’m like, “Oh my God.”

After that, they told us, “Oh, you’re not supposed to type it. There’s a place for the multiple-choice questions.” Even using the ExamForce software — that was like our first time seeing that kind of thing.

Frank: But the good thing is that the Career Center and the Office of Student Life did a good job of giving us the right orientation to know how to use the resources and the tools.

Wumi: Yeah. So don’t be like me and type the multiple choice.

Frank: We don’t want that to happen.

Wumi: Yeah. What were the most important classes or lessons you had during your time at WashU?

Frank: All my professors were amazing. I enjoyed all my classes. I would mention one because my concentration was in intellectual property and technology law — a course that I took, which is Patents. I enjoyed that class because it was a new area for me. I had never learned about patents in Nigeria before I came to the United States. I got to learn the intricacies of intellectual property — not just registering a trademark, but when you are an inventor, or you invent something, knowing how to register it, knowing how to make sure that you get the best protection for your inventions. I would say that I enjoyed that class very much.

Wumi: I have two classes. The first — I enjoyed the Survey of IP class, because that class breaks down patent, copyright, trademark, trade secrets — all of that. It breaks it down. So if you have no background in IP, that’s the class I’d advise anyone to take, because it really breaks down everything you need to know about IP, which translates to the other IP classes that you would take, like Copyright and Trademark and all of that.

And then my second class I liked was the IP Litigation class — not because there wasn’t a final exam, but because every week we had an assignment that you had to do. It was IP litigation, basically going from the first stage, season to season, all the way down to the appeal. And in that class, if any employer asks you for a writing sample, every single assignment in that class can be used as a writing sample.

Frank: You have like a bank of writing samples.

Wumi: Yes, you have. If you need a writing sample, that’s the class you’ll take. So yeah, those two classes were really good for me.

Frank: And what would you say is your biggest learning experience in terms of education? What was your biggest educational learning experience? What did you learn throughout the entire journey as a student, and how has that experience helped you in your professional and personal career?

Wumi: I think here at WashU, they really do a great job of making sure you actually understand what the law is. It’s not enough to know the law — it’s to understand how the law works together with its exceptions. So for me, my background — knowing where to find the law was enough — but here, because most of the exams are really open book and all of that, you know where the law is. So if you can’t apply the law, that’s where the issue is. If you can’t apply the principle, that’s where the issue is.

So WashU really taught me that, because previously, I could go through an entire semester of classes, and when I was done writing the exam, that was it. Everything I learned — poof, you know? But here, I can recall some things I learned in class because of the method of teaching, and knowing that, “Okay, this week I’m going to be on call” — it’s like, “Okay, I need to really prepare. I need to understand what this particular reading is about and how it applies to the general idea of the course.”

So I think that’s something that WashU has taught me, and I’m going to use that further. Knowing the law is not enough — you also need to know how to apply the law in context, how the cases work, why we are reading this case. So I think that’s a really good learning experience for me.

Frank: To add to that, it is also similar — coming to experience WashU, the teaching method, the engagement in class, the fact that I had to read before class, preparing, making sure that I’m not disengaged. It’s more like I am being taught to know why, as you said — not just to learn how to pass the exams, because that is also a dissimilarity between the system here in the United States and the system in our country, because the major key there is passing the exams.

But here, it is more like — my ideas are also important in the exams, I have to say. One of our professors also told us in the exams, the question could be a yes or no. If you say yes, explain why it’s a yes. If it’s a no, explain why it’s a no. So it could be either option.

Wumi: I remember in copyright, the exam is yes, no, or maybe.

Frank: Oh, maybe.

Wumi: And I was like, “What? Maybe?”

Frank: Maybe.

Wumi: Like, who would choose maybe? Are you not sure? So you really need to know why we’re reading this, how this fits in the context. So that’s something I really appreciated from the learning experience here at WashU.

Frank: Exactly. And that engagement makes you bring out your own ideas, because I believe that it’s not just important to regurgitate what we are taught, just write it down, and then we leave. There is that avenue, or that opportunity, to express ourselves and state your own ideas. Your ideas could be very innovative. I’ve heard several instances where I was in class and the professors always tell us, “Oh, I really loved that answer that a student gave. I wasn’t expecting that. No one has answered that question in that way.” It’s amazing to know that we are allowed to express ourselves the way we want — not just answering the question the way it is. Just express yourself. And that extra detail is also very important professionally, as a lawyer in the career.

What’s something you would change about your experience at WashU?

Wumi: This is very easy for me. So one thing I would change is that I decided to focus or concentrate on intellectual property in my second semester. If I had made that decision earlier, I would have done a lot more courses on intellectual property in my first semester. I would have made the course selection balanced. Because I made up my mind later on, all my intellectual property courses, I had to cram them all in the second semester, and it was a lot. I was doing more than 15 credits in the second semester. So it was a lot for me. So I would change that and make myself a bit more relaxed, if I could go back.

For me, a lot of my classes were at night. I had a lot of 6:30-to-8:00 classes — 9 p.m., sorry. And sometimes I just wanted to go home, you know?

Frank: I totally understand.

Wumi: I liked the courses I was taking, but there were sometimes when you just want to go home.

Frank: Yeah, because the energy is there in the morning when you wake up. We have a lot of energy in the afternoon. And in the evening, you come back from work and then you go straight to class, and you’re like, “Oh, I just want to go home” — all of those 6:30-to-8:00 classes. Yours was 6:30 to 8:00 — I had a class that was 9:00 p.m., I think.

Wumi: Yeah. I think I had like a three-hour Constitutional Law class.

Frank: Exactly.

Wumi: And I was like, “Oh no, I just want to go home.”

Frank: Yeah, I totally understand you.

So, what is the student interpersonal social life like?

The student social life is amazing. The thing about it is that there are several student clubs, engagement opportunities — there’s a lot of stuff to participate in. Intellectual Property Law Society — I can’t remember all of them, because it’s overwhelming to start mentioning. So you are always engaged. There’s something for you to do. It could be speaking at an event, or participating in a moot court competition, a client interview and counseling competition. It’s a lot of activities. These activities are the avenues through which you can socialize, network, meet other people, share ideas. So there is a lot to do — a lot of extracurricular activities.

Wumi: For us — when we had the Nigerian Independence Day, we had someone host a dinner, and then all of us brought food to the person’s house, and then we ate and had fun. So that made me know a lot of Nigerians in this law school, and also know a lot of Ghanaians and others in the law school.

Those events happen, and there are sometimes when I go with friends to go eat dinner or eat lunch somewhere, like a restaurant over in the Loop or Central West End or whatever. Those kinds of events happen, and sometimes a lot of student organizations also host career talks and all of that.

I love the career talks. I love the food. Also, the Graduate and International Programs hosts — I think they had a Halloween party and all of that, and they had big pizza. We also had one over at Forest Park where we ate and had fun, and there were games. If you’re looking for food, there will be food — but then there’s also room for engagement and meeting people and socializing.

Frank: I would like to ask one last question. If you were asked to describe a memorable experience here at WashU during your time, can you think about something that you really enjoyed, or something that just stood out for you among everything that happened — among the entire chaos? Can you remember anything?

Wumi: I don’t know if I’ll say there’s one particular thing, but I can say that I’ve needed a lot of help during this transition phase of my life. A lot of the connections I’ve made with professors or staff or with students is really what got me to where I am today. A lot of those connections came from just telling someone in my class, “Oh, this is what I’m going through.” And they’re like, “Oh yeah, I know someone that could help you.” And through that, you get things done.

So I think the entire experience here at WashU made me realize that the connections you make along the way are very important.

Frank: Essentially, it’s important to have the community.

Wumi: Yes.

Frank: People you can always reach out to.

Wumi: Yes.

Frank: So, what about you?

It’s similar to your experience — always knowing that I can reach out to someone that I knew, or that I got to know at an event, and ask them for help, and they would give me direction. Mentorship — it came from having conversations with people at these events that we attend. And I would say that that is very, very key for me, because the experience that I have here has been shaped by the community that I involved myself in.

It’s really what you make of it — how you are, and how you reciprocate. I am also helpful to others. People that come up to me to ask me questions about what they can do, I am also willing to render as much help as I can. So it’s all about community — knowing that we’re all here to help each other.

Wumi: So, Frank, can you tell us how you planned for post-law school?

Frank: Okay. So technically, I haven’t started working, but the thing that I would say is that networking is very important. I would say that has helped me to have the connections that I have right now. I was able to speak with some people that I met and tell them, “Oh, I’m just graduating law school. I’m looking for something to do.” I was able to meet someone who introduced me to the Legal Aid Services of Eastern Missouri, and the amazing opportunity to be a volunteer there came up. I had an interview with them. I spoke to them about the skills that I can bring to them.

Just being able to have that connection with them, and knowing that I have something that I will be doing while I look forward to what’s next, is also a very good thing for me. So that is also the importance of networking — because it was through the network, the people that I reached out to and that I met, those are the people that have helped me to get the information that I need or mention my name in places that matter. So that is it.

Wumi: For me, I wanted to go to law school. I wanted to get my JD. So during the school year, I was studying for the exam and all of that, and applying to schools post my LLM. Through that, I was able to get in here at WashU.

So going further, I think it’s really important to know what you want to do — know what your plans are.

Frank: It has been an amazing experience here at WashU. And I believe that right now we are set for what’s next in our lives. We are moving forward, because we have been able to get all the information we need through reaching out, speaking to people. We are much more informed right now than we were when we arrived here.

So, that is it for today. Wumi, do you have any last thoughts?

Wumi: Yeah, I think the LLM program really served as a stepping stone for us — like a foundation for us. It really served as what pivots us to the next phase of our careers. And for that, I’ll always be grateful.

Frank: So, thank you so much for inviting us to speak, and we hope that along the way someone finds our information useful. We hope that you enjoy the information we have provided, and we wish you all the best in your career. And we wish you all the best at WashU Law.

Wumi: Bye.

Frank: Goodbye.