Opportunities Outside the Classroom

Juan Del Valle: Well, hello, everybody. My name is Juan Del Valle. I am the Director of International Programs and a lecturer in the law school for a little bit more than seven years. I had the opportunity of being a student here in our LLM for International Attorneys program back in 2009, graduated in 2010. I came originally from Colombia, where I was an attorney, and I decided to pursue my master’s degree in law here to learn more about the common law system, mostly about the U.S. legal system, and hopefully open some professional doors to work in international organizations and in U.S. law firms.

Mike Koby: I’m Mike Koby, and I’m the Associate Dean for International and Graduate Programs, as well as a Professor of Practice. I joined the faculty at Washington University in 2001, and for most of my career here, I’ve been teaching in the JD program. In 2013, though, I was appointed Associate Dean for International Programs, and that includes anything that is a non-JD degree — our LLM, Master of Legal Studies, our JSD doctoral program, as well as our specialized LLM programs.

Jim Reeves: Hi, I’m Jim Reeves. I’m a lecturer in law at Washington University School of Law. I’ve been teaching at Washington University since 2005. Before I came to Washington University, I taught at another university’s law school. Prior to that, I was a litigation attorney for 20 years. Looking forward to talking with all of you about our wonderful programs.

Juan Del Valle: Hello, everybody. Today we’re going to be talking about opportunities outside the classroom for our international and graduate students. I’m here in the room with Dean Koby and Professor Reeves, who will help us explore this very interesting area that really complements the experiences our students have while they’re here at WashU — not only going to class, but also being able to learn through these other possibilities.

So, I’m going to start with Dean Koby. Dean, can you tell us a little bit about those opportunities outside the classroom for our international and graduate students?

Mike Koby: Well, the first thing I’d say is that it’s a very important part of what we do here. Students have, I think, a great experience inside the classroom. Professors are very committed. They’re fantastic teachers. They care about the students. So I feel like we have that covered. But we also have the experiences outside the classroom that really make our program distinct from other programs, I believe. In fact, our goal has always been to give our students the best experience of any law school in the United States.

So, how do we do that? Well, we have a lot of different programs that students can participate in. For example, we have our moot court program. We have an extensive number of competitions that they can compete in. This next week on campus will be the Client Counseling Competition. We have a Trial Advocacy Competition where students present a closing argument to a jury. We have an Appellate Advocacy Competition where students present an appellate argument to a panel of judges. And then students can also try out for our international moot courts with the JD students. One is our Jessup Competition, and the second — new this year — is the Vis International Arbitration Competition, which takes place either in Vienna or Hong Kong.

We have those moot court programs, which we’ll talk about even more. But then we also have a program called the Attorney Advisor Program. Each student at the beginning of the year is assigned a practicing attorney who works and mentors that student through one of our courses.

Students can participate on the Global Studies Law Review. This is, I think, a unique opportunity that other schools, frankly, just don’t offer. We have an international student advisory board where students can work with the law review and bring their expertise from their home country to the work of the law review.

We have a program that we call GELP — the Judicial Experiential Learning Program — that allows students to observe and be in a courtroom and earn a certificate there. Then we have our student panels, where international students will talk about their legal systems and the practice of law in their country with a student organization. And we have a lot of fun events — a lot of social events that we enjoy throughout the year.

Juan Del Valle: Thank you, Dean Koby. Tell us a little bit more about the competitions, if we can go a little bit deeper into the moot court competitions. What should students expect out of this experience, and what benefits do you think these competitions bring to them?

Mike Koby: Well, I think the whole idea of a moot court program is to allow students to take the role of a lawyer in different contexts. So, for example, in the Trial Advocacy Competition, the student takes the role of a trial lawyer giving a closing argument in a trial. They’re able to develop their lawyering skills in giving that closing argument. Same with the appellate advocacy. And then Jessup and the Vis competitions are both international-law focused.

Professor Reeves is working with our Client Counseling Competition. Why don’t you talk a little bit about that?

Jim Reeves: Sure — thanks, Mike. So, our Client Counseling Competition, again, brings theory to practice. We get out of the classroom and get into the legal office — with air quotes. It is an opportunity for international students to learn the skill of interviewing a client for the first time, when a client comes to their office with a legal problem. They have an opportunity to ask questions, learn more about what brought that client into the office. Then they also have to do a little bit of legal analysis. Just as a lawyer would do — they learn about the legal problem and then provide some suggestions. So they’re applying some of the substantive law that they have learned in the classroom.

They’re learning to formulate questions. They’re learning to listen carefully and create an environment in which they help a client feel comfortable. We get a lot of great feedback from the students. It is a competition, so we have a preliminary round and then a final round in the afternoon. As you said, Dean Koby, it’ll be next week, so the students are getting ready. To help them prepare for the competition, we do a seminar on client counseling, so that the students go into the competition understanding what the purpose of the client counseling exercise is, and also have an opportunity to see an example of a client counseling session.

Juan Del Valle: Fantastic.

Mike Koby: One of the things I would add to that is — I like how our competitions follow the practice of law. So we have pretrial, which would be the Client Counseling Competition, which really helps students develop their lawyering skills in that context. Then the Trial Advocacy is from the trial stage, and our Appellate Advocacy is from the appellate stage. So we have the whole spectrum of litigation covered, and we like to give students the opportunity to develop the skills in each of those areas.

Juan Del Valle: That sounds amazing. It sounds not only fun, but also very, very useful for anybody who is into the world of law. I’m even thinking about going back to law school just to be able to participate in one of those. That’s amazing.

Now, one thing I wanted to add is that I’ve seen how our international students enhance their resumes after participating in these types of programs. It’s always very useful for those students who are really creating a resume and making it stronger for their professional future, to be able to show future employers and potential employers that they have invested time into not only having good grades and passing exams, but also into practice — into being able to put together and increase their tools in the practice of law. So that’s something that I think is very beneficial for our international students.

Mike Koby: I think we’ve done the research. We know what other schools do. I think our opportunities are unparalleled. We offer such a wide variety of opportunities in the context of our moot court offerings. We’re proud of that, and we’re happy that our students can participate.

Juan Del Valle: Thank you, Dean Koby. Tell us a little bit about GELP — the Judicial Experiential Learning Program. What does that program consist of?

Mike Koby: That program allows students the opportunity — gives students the opportunity — to see up front, in person, the life of the court, and what goes on in court from the beginning, from jury selection through a trial or sentencing or even appellate arguments. During the spring semester, students observe a wide variety of proceedings. It’s not an internship per se; it doesn’t add work. They’re not helping the judge write opinions or anything like that. It’s really an observation program. But the students who participate in this program tell me that they learn a tremendous amount about the legal system just by being in the courtroom, interacting with the judge, watching what goes on during a typical day. It really rounds out their education from the theory in the classroom, and again allows students to get a real-life perspective on what goes on in our courts.

Juan Del Valle: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Sounds very interesting. As you know, I was an international student 15 or 16 years ago. From the point of view of a student, I can only imagine how exciting it could be to be in a real court — because the professors can tell you something, the books can tell you something, the movies also show you something, but being able to actually be there and witness what’s going on in a true trial — that’s just amazing.

I wanted to add about our international student panels, which is a program in which I’ve been actively helping throughout the last terms with different student associations. What we do is, we give the opportunity to students who come from different legal systems to be able to share not only about their legal system, but also, a lot of times, to answer questions that are kind of challenging to answer, because the different legal systems will have a different approach to a specific area. We have had several very nice discussions. I can tell you that in the past two events, we have had at least five different legal systems represented. We have had people and students that come from the civil law system, from other common law systems, from Sharia-law-based systems, from mixed legal systems. It’s just amazingly beneficial for our international and domestic students to learn that, you know, out there in the world, there are so many legal systems that are living things — that are adapting, that are borrowing elements from other legal systems, that are adapting to a changing world. So this is something that I also think our international and graduate students can benefit from.

Mike Koby: What I would add to that is, it’s really beneficial to our U.S. JD students. I think in the typical law classroom, the focus is on the law in the United States — which it should be. They’re learning to become U.S. lawyers. But these panels bring together our international students with our U.S. JD students, and the JD students benefit from understanding that other legal systems exist and how they operate differently. Also, what does a career as a lawyer look like in those countries? It’s a great way of integrating the two groups of students — our JD students and our LLM students — and it’s really beneficial to the JD students as well.

Juan Del Valle: Dean Koby, why don’t you tell us about the Attorney Advisor Program? What is that about, and how does it benefit our students?

Mike Koby: Well, what I love about this program is it connects students with practicing lawyers in the community, and it gives them a perspective on what the practice of law looks like in the U.S. Each student, when they arrive, is assigned an attorney — their attorney advisor — who works with them throughout the Introduction to U.S. Law and Methods course. It’s a writing course. But the relationship oftentimes will go much beyond that to more of a mentoring role, an advising role, and it’s a great connection to practice. You have a connection to our academics — our professors, who are great — and this gives you a tie to practice with practicing lawyers.

But, Professor Reeves, you’ve been involved in that program. Why don’t you talk a little bit about your experience?

Jim Reeves: For a number of years, yes — thank you. I find it so rewarding to work with the international students as an attorney advisor. So, I will meet with each of my students. I’ll usually have anywhere from 12 to 15 students, and I will meet with them one-on-one several times throughout the semester. Sometimes we are reviewing writing. We’re talking about common law and synthesizing cases. I’m answering questions that they might have about the law, about writing, about the U.S. legal system. And outside of those meetings, my door is always open. So they always know that they can come see me.

Now, while I am a professor at the law school, I also keep a finger in practice. I have been in practice, well — gosh, this month, 40 years. So I keep a good presence in the practice of law, so that I do have the ability to create opportunities for students to explore the legal system, meet other lawyers, come to bar association functions. I’ll be sitting with an international student in a couple of days, visiting with a circuit judge. The feedback that the students give on the program is just fantastic. I think they’re really grateful to have the experience to explore the law and have someone in practice that they can go to and know they can visit with any time.

Juan Del Valle: I agree that definitely for these students, to be able to have an advisor — really, the whole means — is amazing. Being able to ask for that support and to feel that they’re not alone in this sometimes challenging path of learning about a different legal system. So I really think that’s useful.

Dean Koby, why don’t you tell us a little bit about the opportunity that students have within the Global Studies Law Review?

Mike Koby: Certainly. That opportunity is, I think, a unique opportunity among law schools in the United States. If you think about the legal education system here, law review is a big deal. To be on law review, to write for one of the journals, is something that students really vie for and want to be on — for resume value, because a lot of jobs require students to be on law review. So our international students can apply to be on the International Student Advisory Board of the Global Studies Law Review. In that capacity, they’re able to work with students in the JD program as they publish a journal — a law review — and they will be able, in that role, to share their expertise. So a student from China can advise on articles that deal with international law topics or the Chinese legal system, or really any example — whether it’s from Saudi Arabia or Mexico or Colombia, they can bring the expertise they have in their own legal systems and assist in the publication of articles for that journal. The students have found that to be quite engaging. So, again, a nice thing for the resume — to say they were on this advisory board for the law review.

Juan Del Valle: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Dean Koby, and thank you, Professor Reeves. I really enjoyed this conversation. It’s always amazing to learn about all these opportunities that we offer our international and graduate students. Thank you so much for being here, and for telling us everything that you told us.

Jim Reeves: It’s been a pleasure, Juan. We’ll talk again sometime.

Juan Del Valle: Adiós. Au revoir. 再见. Arrivederci. Güle güle. Hadi vedalaş. 안녕히 계세요. 잘 가. 안녕히 가세요.