LLM Alumni Discuss Careers and Coursework

[Intro voiceover]: Welcome to Navigating Grad Law at WashU — your guide to admissions, academics, and more. Today, sit down with our recent LLM graduates, Frank and Wumi, while they chat about their student experiences at WashU Law.

Wumi: Hello, everyone. My name is Wumi, and with me is Frank. We’re going to talk about our LLM experience here at WashU Law. I’ll let Frank introduce himself first.

Frank: Hi, everyone. My name is Frank. I am from Nigeria. I obtained my LLB degree in Nigeria. After that, I went to law school in Nigeria, and I obtained my first LLM in Europe before I decided to come to WashU. The program I did here is the Intellectual Property and Technology Law program.

Wumi: My name is Wumi, and pretty much the same as Frank. I did my LLB back in Nigeria, and I did my law school in Nigeria, and then I came here. So this is my first LLM degree.

So, Frank, can you tell us how the application process was for you?

Frank: The application process was very easy. I immediately reached out to the Office of Admissions. I also had an interview with the representative I spoke to from WashU. After I applied, it was about two days, I received a response — so it was pretty fast for me.

Wumi: I think mine was kind of the same. I applied through the LSAC platform, but I applied through LSAC because I was applying to a bunch of schools. So I applied to WashU. I applied to different schools. And surprisingly, WashU was the last school I applied to, but they were the first to get back to me. With the scholarship offer and putting all the things into factors, I ended up going for WashU.

So, Frank — why WashU Law?

Frank: For me, I got admitted to several other schools, but at the end of the day, I decided to check the rank of WashU. WashU had a very high rank, and I decided, “You know what — if I’m going to invest in myself, I would invest in a top law school.” So I decided to go to WashU.

Wumi: Yeah — I think that’s pretty similar to me, too. At the end of the day, my last two choices had to do with ranking and location. Location was really important to me, because the cost of living here is really low compared to a lot of places. So I ended up coming here, because I was like, “Let me just pick the place that has the lower cost of living.” I think that’s something St. Louis really offers to us — talking to people, I know that I’m on the cheaper side.

So yeah — can you tell us about your first impression upon arrival at WashU Law?

Frank: First, my impression about the city, before I talk about WashU: it’s a very small city, and pretty chill. When I came onto WashU, it was a very welcoming experience for me. I got to speak with JD students — people I had already been communicating with before I came here. And it was a very welcoming experience. The Office of Graduate Admissions — they were willing to answer my questions. It was a good experience for me.

Wumi: Yeah, I think mine is pretty much the same. Coming here was really different, because you come in by yourself, you don’t know anyone. But coming for orientation, they kind of brief you on everything you need to know about life in St. Louis and life in WashU Law. So I was able to get a lot of information. And then talking to people before I got here — I wasn’t able to get an apartment before coming here, so I just moved in when I got here, straight from the airport. I really planned myself to enjoy the time here at WashU, and getting it right from the beginning was something I was trying my best to do. So getting an apartment — also, transportation here is really easy, because they have the WashU shuttles and all of that.

So now let’s talk about the program itself. I did the Intellectual Property and Technology Law program, and you did the same. Can you walk me through what made you choose this program, and how was it?

Frank: Truthfully, I really didn’t have a background in intellectual property coming here, so I think that’s something good about the LLM program — you meet a lot of people here who have really intensive backgrounds in some places, and in some places you don’t have a lot of specialization. That’s something that was different, because everyone came from a different background.

It was pretty much the same for me. I was just enthusiastic about technology law. I wanted to know what was going on in technology — especially with the development of AI — so it was a very good opportunity for me to get to know what is happening in the world. So it was a good choice for me.

[Note: the original transcript mixed Wumi’s and Frank’s IP-program reasons in this section. The natural conversational flow suggests Wumi answered first about her interest in copyright/trademark/trade secrets, and Frank followed with his enthusiasm about technology law and AI. Reattributed accordingly.]

Wumi: I was really interested in intellectual property, because I really wanted to specialize in something, and intellectual property was kind of calling my name like, “Yeah, you need to do this.” So I ended up choosing the Intellectual Property and Technology Law specialization, because that was something I was interested in — copyright, trademark, and trade secrets law.

Also, Frank — I think when you got here, you were kind of doing the General LLM, and then along the way you decided to do the IP and Tech.

Frank: Correct. In the first semester, I was still trying to decide which area I wanted to do, so it was in the second semester that I made up my mind that I was going for Intellectual Property and Technology Law.

Wumi: I think that’s something that’s really good here, because you can choose along the way what you want to do eventually. Coming here thinking you want to do IP and then realizing later you want to go into business law, or get a concentration in something else — that’s something that I really liked here, because eventually people decided to go different routes than when they started.

Okay — now, let’s talk about the grading, assignments, reading. How were you able to manage all this with all the activities that were going on in school?

Wumi: You just really have to prioritize. A lot of the classes that you take, sometimes they’re like 20 pages of reading before the class. Or you have to go to clubs. I remember I was in the Intellectual Property Law Society. I was a Student Bar Association representative. Just a lot of clubs and a lot of things you have to do — but you really have to prioritize. I also had a part-time job here on campus. You really just have to prioritize.

Frank: It’s pretty much the same for me. I was a member of the Dean’s Student Committee, and I was a member of several bodies — the same ones you mentioned, I was in them as well. So it’s all about balancing — knowing how to schedule my time, making sure that I read before the classes. Those are very important. You don’t want to be lost when the classes are going on. You have to read before each class. I would say that, though, it was a very good experience for me.

Wumi: And how about your own personal experience in terms of your first semester? How was it for you?

Frank: My personal experience — I think it’s different, because coming from Nigeria, it’s very different. Yes, you’re supposed to read, but here it’s more practical. Unlike where I’m from, it’s like you need to cram what’s going on. Not just cram cases, but here you need an understanding of what exactly you’re reading. Most of the exams are open book, or, you know, limited closed-book kind of exams. So you really need to have a practical understanding of what the law is, and you have to understand what exactly this case is about — why are we reading this case? Why is this case so important that we have to take 30 minutes out of the class to read it? So that’s something that is different from where we’re coming from.

Wumi: Exactly. It’s the same for me. I would say the same thing you just said. One other thing I wanted to add is about the courses. It’s important to know how to select the courses and how to spread them between the two semesters, because if you decide to choose a lot of courses in the first semester, the burden would be a lot less in the second semester. But if you split the courses — the same amount of courses in both semesters — it would make the burden balanced. You’re not under pressure at any stage. I believe you have something to add to that.

Frank: Yeah, so for the IP LLM, you have to take 15 credits in all. So I know for me, for the first semester, I took nine IP courses, and then in the second one, I took six.

[Note: the source transcript has Wumi describing her own course load here, but the numbers and the surrounding sentence about Frank doing the opposite suggest some attribution confusion. Based on context — Wumi later advises against pushing all courses to one semester, while Frank confirms he did exactly that — I’ve reassigned the “first semester nine, second six” account to Wumi and the “all in second semester” account to Frank.]

Wumi: So you can already kind of tell how my semester was in the first semester. It was really hectic. And then the second semester, it was kind of the opposite. I was more relaxed, because I had already taken the huge burden up front, and now it was just enjoying the LLM. It was more relaxed. I think that was the opposite for Frank, because Frank really had to take all his IP classes in the second semester.

Frank: And I would not advise anyone to do that. I would say split them evenly or equally. Make sure that it’s balanced, so you don’t have to be burdened in any semester.

Wumi: Can you tell us how the second semester was for you?

Frank: The second semester — I pushed all my IP courses to my second semester. So I would say that, although I tried as much as possible to balance my schedules with other extracurricular activities, it was a little bit much for me. But I tried as much as I could to balance, because all my IP courses were in the second semester. Which I wouldn’t advise anyone to do if you’re specializing in IP. So it was good for me, and I would say that it was also an opportunity to know when to decide what I was going to do next. Yes, that was it.

Wumi: Yeah — I know people do the concentration in IP. They just take, like, nine credits of the IP courses. So you don’t have to do the entire 15. You can do nine credits and still get the concentration in IP.

Frank: Yeah, and not just IP. We’ve been talking about IP because that is the —

Wumi: Yeah, because we’re IP-ing.

Frank: We’re IP-ing, you know — but there is also the negotiation, arbitration. There are several options for you to choose from.

Wumi: Yeah, just like the General LLM, the business LLM. So there are different specializations you can really go into. You don’t really have to only do IP.

Frank: Exactly. That’s one of the great things, again, about the LLM program here.

Wumi: Okay — so can you tell us what activities you were involved in in school?

Frank: Okay. I was a member of the Dean’s Student Advisory Committee. I was a representative of the SBA — that is, the Student Bar Association. I took part in moot competitions. Client counseling competitions. I did a lot of things. I can say the same for you.

Wumi: Let’s be frank — we probably did all of that together. I also participated in the Global Studies Law Review, so I was part of the advisory board in the Global Studies Law Review. So it’s a lot. And that is why we emphasized balancing the schedule — because we had to do all these things with our courses, and we had to read for each class, study for our exams. So it’s all about balance.

The LLM program is really what you make of it, so everyone’s experience is different. I prioritized doing a lot, because I really needed to have a lot of things on my CV. I was coming fresh from Nigeria — I really didn’t have a lot of things on my resume — so I prioritized participating in a lot of these moot court competitions and the client counseling competitions, just so I could have something on my resume when looking for a job, or for whatever plan I had next.

Now, let’s move to living in St. Louis. Back home, I was really introverted. So here, I don’t think you can be introverted. I really had to push myself to communicate and make friends and make a community. The good thing about the LLM is that almost everyone is like you. Everyone left where they’re from to come here to a new place. So there’s that bonding experience you have with people. That was something I really took out of the LLM — making friends who understood you and where you were coming from. I had friends from all over the world that I didn’t think I would have before. So it was a good experience for me, I would say.

Frank: And one thing I would like to add to what Wumi already said is about having that community, creating that bond. I would advise that it’s better to start that the moment you arrive. It’s easier — even if you’re an introvert — to just be in your corner, go from your class to your house, live a triangular life. But I would say that it’s very important to have a community, and not just those in your class. It could be JD students, JSD students, MLS students — even students in other departments. It’s very important to broaden your horizon.

Wumi: Yeah, you might need help along the way, and it’s the friends you make who help you when you need help, because your family is not here. So you need those people. I know the amount of times I’ve called Frank and been like, “Yeah, Frank, I have this problem,” and he’s there to help. You really need to build that community and build those friendships along the way.

Frank: Exactly. And not just among classmates — your professors as well. Reach out to professors, reach out to the staff. Always ask questions about anything you don’t know. Everyone here is willing to help you in any way they can. So building that friendship and building that relationship with people is really important.

Wumi: Living in St. Louis for me — I’m not really the outdoorsy kind of person, but I think I had some fun here. Going to the zoo. We had, like, the Barrister’s Ball. We had, like, the Halloween party and all of that. So I think here, life is really what you make of it. There’s a lot of fun things to do here in St. Louis.

Frank: Exactly. So I would move to an important part of our discussion: what are the options after the LLM program, and when should we start planning? What would you say about that?

Wumi: I think for me, the LLM is nine months — so everyone comes from different backgrounds. Some people already know what they’re doing next. So you really need to start planning yourself early on. Do you want to do the OPT? Do you want to go do a JD? Do you want to do a JSD? Do you want to do another master’s? There are a lot of options for you on what you can do.

I would say I started planning my path as soon as I got here, because I was like, “I need to know what I’m doing next.” They don’t really explain to you how short of a time it is, because right now we’re graduating, and I’m like, “I literally just got here, like, two seconds ago.” So I think you really need to start planning yourself — what’s going to happen next, talking to people, getting their experience on what they did, and all of that.

Frank: Exactly. To add to what you just said: not only planning what you want to do next — planning early. You have to start early. Even before you arrive, I think you have to make up your mind on what you want to do next, because there’s not much time. You can see the amount of activities we mentioned that we were involved in, and we were also reading, preparing for classes. So it’s a lot, and the time goes by so quickly that you don’t even know that — oh, the thing has finished, and you’re in the middle of a chaotic time and you don’t know what to do.

Wumi: Yeah — because I think for me, a lot of the reasons I was able to figure out what I wanted to do next was talking to people, like the staff. The Graduate and International Programs — they’re great. They’ll listen to you. They’ll tell you what to do next. Basically, just knowing what you want to do next, listening to other people and saying, “Oh yeah, this path is good,” or, “This path’s not good.” Really, you need to get your foot out the door. Some people already know they’re going back home to look for a job. Some people already know, okay, they want to do another master’s. And also taking the bar — a lot of people take the bar. Right now, I’m not taking the bar. But I know a lot of people who are currently studying for the bar exam right now. There’s really a lot of options for you to take, and you really need to just plan yourself.

Frank: Which is where networking also comes in — by the time you network with your colleagues, professors, and reach out, attend events, even outside of school. These kinds of events also open your mind to what opportunities there are, what path you should take.

Wumi: Yeah — because I think Frank attended a lot of networking programs here. I mean, way more than me. So can you tell us about some of the networking programs?

Frank: I attended a lot. I can’t even remember the names. But I attended some job fairs. I attended some scholarship dinners that were organized — sometimes WashU invites the donors and invites students, and we get to have dinners where the donors meet the students. It was an amazing experience for me. The relationships, the people I met at these events, are very vital to me right now — to the steps I want to take next after my LLM. So I would say networking is very key.

Wumi: So can you tell us how the LLM helped you in your career? How did the LLM and IP and Tech help you right now?

Frank: I would say that the LLM generally — before I even delve into the IP and Tech aspect of it — has opened my eyes to the United States legal system. It has taught me how things are done here, the mindset I should have as a lawyer or as a prospective attorney here in the United States. Now, in the IP and Tech aspect of it, I have also gained skills that I need — or that have given me the foundation that I need — if I want to specialize in this IP and Tech area. Right now I know the areas that are difficult in the IP and Tech field and the areas that are easy, so I can decide which path I want to take. So I would say it has opened my mind and opened my eyes to choose wisely what I want to do next.

Wumi: Yeah — because for me, that’s probably the same. I remember I took an IP Litigation class, and the entire semester was drafting the legal processes. So I have, like, a really good writing-sample folder I can go to when I’m looking for jobs. The classes you take really help you in that sense, because now I know my drafting skills are better than before. You need to be deliberate about the classes you take. You need to be deliberate about how this class will help you overall.

Frank: Yes — so it’s like, you want to take a class, yeah, the grading might be better, but if it’s not a class that you want to take, that will help you, then you shouldn’t take the class. But at the end of the day, we just have to understand that the LLM really helps you understand the U.S. legal system way better. Coming here, I didn’t know much, or anything, about the U.S. legal system, but this LLM really gave me a background on what exactly is going on. And taking the 2L and 3L courses — you really meet a lot of people who are familiar with this system, and then you interact with them, and that really helps you, too.

Wumi: Exactly. And just to add to what you said about taking 2L and 3L courses — it’s also an avenue, because some courses are LLM only. When you take the 2L courses, you get to interact with the JD students, because you’re in the same class with them. That gives you the opportunity to network more and interact more. I took some LLM-only classes. I took Constitutional Law. I took the LLM Legal Profession class. Really, those classes are also good. I took them because I just wanted to have a general background on the legal profession and the constitutional law system here in the U.S. I think being really deliberate about the classes you take is really important.

Frank: Exactly. So right now we’re going to be talking about the practical options that are available once you complete the LLM, or that you should be thinking about before you complete the LLM program. So, Wumi, can you tell us?

Wumi: Yeah — so really, a lot of options you can take. There’s the JSD. You can do the LLM-to-JD classes. You just have to ensure that you are aware of the requirements as it relates to the grade and when you should apply, and all of that. Also, applying freshly as a 1L in a school, if that’s what you want to do. Applying for jobs straight up — that’s also something a lot of people did. They don’t want to go back to school; they just want to go straight into the job market. That’s why it’s important to network, because then you have to start early — making your LinkedIn look good, making your resume look good. The Career Center helps in making your resume and your cover letter look good. That’s why it’s also important to network, because you need those people when you’re looking for jobs. You can also enroll in another master’s, if you think another master’s might help you. But basically, you just need to know what you want to do next. If you want to go back home, you can go back home. There are a lot of options available to you.

Frank: And just to emphasize what you said about networking — it is easier to reach out to someone whom you have known for a long time, instead of just reaching out to them when you are looking for a job. Because, assuming when you arrived here in the United States, you started your program and you started networking, attending these events — you already make friends with these new people. So by the time you’re done with your program, you can easily reach out to them. It is easier that way.

Wumi: Yeah — network, network, network. You have to network. The importance can never be overemphasized.

So we will be leaving you guys with just a few important tips, I would say. So, Wumi, can you give us one?

[Note: the speaker labels above are based on the surrounding context — Frank then takes the next “tip” turn, and Wumi the one after.]

Wumi: You have to know what you want to do early. You really need to know what exactly your plan is. You have to be deliberate about that, because the earlier you start, the more you’ll learn along the way. The more you realize, like, “Okay, yeah, this path is not for me.” That’s something that you should really, really, really look at.

Frank: So, again — networking. It is very crucial for the legal career. Start from your classmates, colleagues. Interact, get to know your professors, other JD students, other LLM students. Maintain a good network with the university community, even outside of the community. Attend professional events. Socialize. Have a broad network. It helps a lot. Talk to people about your plans. I have found that this is very important. When you meet people for the first time, tell them what you want to do, because the person you’re talking to could be the person who would have the answers, or may not have the answers but knows someone who has the answers to the questions you’re looking for. So always be willing to speak. Talking is very important. If you’re introverted, learn how to be an extrovert in a way. So, yeah — that is what I’ll have to say. And always be ready to sell yourself positively.

Wumi: And, Frank — so what’s your plan next after the LLM?

Frank: I am going to be applying for the OPT. I have already applied for my OPT, and I’ve also applied for some jobs, and I’ve started with some volunteer opportunities before I get a paid opportunity. So after that, I plan to get back to the JD program eventually.

How about you, Wumi? What is your plan?

Wumi: I’m going to be a 1L here at WashU. Maybe you guys will see me around the campus. But yeah — I’m going to be a 1L. So I basically took the LSAT. That’s why I said you really have to start on time, because I started taking the LSAT during the LLM, as early as November and January. So it’s like, you need to know what exactly you want to do here.

Frank: Yeah — I wish you guys all the best. I think we’ve pretty much wrapped up everything we wanted to say. It was great speaking to you guys, and I hope that everything we have said — you can pick one or two things from it. We wish you guys all the best at WashU Law, and good luck.

Wumi: Good luck in your career. Good luck in the application and all of that. All the best. Bye.

Frank: Bye. Adiós. Au revoir. Arrivederci. Good luck. Good luck. Alvida. Khuda hafez. 안녕히 계세요. Taagah. Sayonara.