MLS Student Experience: Dave Howell

Jim Reeves: Welcome back to Navigating Grad Law. This is the podcast produced by the International and Graduate Studies department at Washington University Law School in St. Louis. I’m Jim Reeves. I’m a professor here at the law school. I teach in alternative dispute resolution — or, as we call it, Negotiation and Dispute Resolution. I also work closely with a lot of our graduate and international studies students in the International and Graduate Studies program at Washington University.

Those of you who have been following the podcast know that we do a lot of segments on international law, graduate law, and the advantages our programs provide to lawyers — and to those who hope to become lawyers — in international law and international practice. Today we’re going to shift gears a little bit. We have with us one of our students from the Master of Legal Studies, or what we call the MLS program.

Dave and I were introduced recently, and we will have an opportunity to talk with Mr. Dave Howell, who will soon be finishing his program here at Washington University in the Master of Legal Studies program. Dave’s got a fascinating perspective on what brought him to Washington University. Welcome, Dave, to our podcast.

Dave Howell: Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Jim Reeves: Great — well, thanks for being here. I appreciate you taking the time. Dave, you and I have had a chance to get acquainted, and I love your story — what brought you to Washington University. It’s a long and windy road, but I think relevant to what brings you here and what brought you to the MLS program. Tell us a little bit about yourself, your background — your professional background, as well as your educational background.

Dave Howell: Yeah — so by training, I’m an engineer turned entrepreneur. I started out in the 1980s writing computer software for the new Macintosh, and kept doing that for a few years, and then started doing contracting, working independently. One of my clients was bought by Apple, so I went along to work for Apple. I was there for a few years, and finally quit because I wanted to do something on my own. I went back to school, got an MBA, then started a company to make mobile apps.

I really enjoyed going back to school. It’s invigorating. It makes you take a fresh look at things you thought you knew. I got a lot out of it — not necessarily the things I thought I would get out of it. Then I worked for a while with this startup making mobile apps, and finally decided, “You know, I want to go back to school again.” For me, school has twofold advantages. One is just — any school — it’s a chance to learn and reexamine what you thought you knew. But it’s also a way to prepare yourself for a new adventure.

So, Apple had just opened up the App Store to developers. I quit my job there in the apps division at Apple, and started up Avatron Software. We didn’t know what we were going to do. I just hired two engineers, and we spent our first two days at a whiteboard thinking of all the things we could make apps to do. We had all these criteria, like: What are we sort of uniquely qualified to do? What are our skills as a team? What is something that should be on this little device but isn’t, and that people might pay for? Like that, we had maybe 20 criteria, and we just came up with crazy ideas, a few good ones, and came up with one idea for an app called AirSharing.

We put it in the store back when there were only 800 apps in the store — compared to the 3 million now — and got our app downloaded a million times in two weeks.

Jim Reeves: Fantastic. And we’re talking apps — I mean, we were literally talking about the apps on our iPhones, which is just taken for granted these days. But back then it was kind of cutting edge.

Dave Howell: Yeah — it was something completely new. Nobody knew how to program for iOS, because the programming environment had just come out. So it was a new adventure.

Jim Reeves: Well, at some point you decided, “Yeah, I’m going to go back to school again.” You wanted to explore a few things. I want to talk a little bit about what made you think, “Oh, you know what? I think I would like to go back to school.” Then at some point you had to make a decision that you wanted to pursue a Master of Legal Studies, or something along those lines. Talk about that.

Dave Howell: Right. So a couple of years ago, I decided to go back to school. I had been working sort of part-time, and I went and got a Master of Science in computer science. I thought I was going to work on a PhD, but what I learned was that I am not a good match for a PhD program. I don’t really like doing research. I like learning about things, but I don’t really want to experiment with experimental algorithms for machine learning or something. I want to build things. So I dropped out of that program, and I thought, “Well, what do I really want to do? I still feel like going back to school.” A lot of the work I had been doing was as an expert witness for law firms that are litigating in intellectual property. And I wanted to learn more about the legal foundations for that, instead of just the technical aspects.

Jim Reeves: And so you could have gotten a JD degree and gone back to law school, or you explored other avenues that might have been of interest to you. Talk about that decision process.

Dave Howell: I never really thought too seriously about a JD. I think if I were doing this 30 years ago, it would have been a great option, and I would have enjoyed it as a career path. But I don’t have the runway in my career to spend six years at a firm trying to become a partner.

Jim Reeves: Right — to make partner.

Dave Howell: I didn’t have that path. So I thought, “Well, I want to work with the law, but I don’t want to be a lawyer.” And as an expert witness, I don’t really want to be perceived as an advocate anyway. That’s a lot of the training for a law student. I’m supposed to be impartial, and it might actually look bad for me to get a law degree in that capacity.

Jim Reeves: So you thought, “Okay, no JD, that’s not for me. It’s almost too much.” So then — did you know that there was something called a Master of Legal Studies, or how did you find out about those kinds of programs?

Dave Howell: If I were trying to find out now, I would ask ChatGPT, which is how I find out everything. But back then I just started googling and looking for what is some sort of degree that’s at a master’s level where I can learn about law. I had never heard of an MLS, except for the multiple listing services that real estate agents use. In fact, when I started the MLS program, my wife said, “Why? I didn’t think you wanted to do real estate.” So — it’s not that one.

I’d never heard of the program, but it sounded like it was just up my alley. This particular one — maybe they’re all like this — but to my delight, it’s very flexible in what kinds of classes I could take. I could completely focus on intellectual property if I wanted, or I could completely focus on tax law, or some other thing. That was really intriguing.

Jim Reeves: And were you living in Portland, Oregon, at the time? That’s where you’re from originally?

Dave Howell: I was in Portland two years ago, but had moved here before deciding to go to school.

Jim Reeves: And is that how you chose Washington University?

Dave Howell: It’s how it came up on my radar. It’s probably why Google presented it to me near the top of the list. But I was looking at the online program, so it could have been anywhere, really. The only thing that would have been important to me at that stage was what time zone it’s in, because I don’t want to have to get up at 6:00 in the morning and try to make my brain work.

Jim Reeves: So at some point you thought, “Okay, I’m going to pursue an MLS.” Then the next decision you had to make, it sounds like, was: Do I do an online program, or — since I’m here in St. Louis — do I go ahead and do the residence program? Talk to me about that decision process.

Dave Howell: At first I signed up for the online program, because I didn’t know I was going to live in town for a full year. But I really wanted to do an in-person program. When the pandemic was ending and schools were saying, “Okay, we can go back to classes now,” I was very excited, because I need that energy of other people and exchanging ideas — and just casual talk about ideas that come up from a class. You don’t get that in an online environment. So I really wanted the in-person program. I checked to make sure it was going to work with all the constraints I had, and it turns out it did, so I switched over to that.

Jim Reeves: And the online program offers a lot of advantages. Many of our MLS students are professionals. They have careers. They find that some of the offerings we have at Washington University in the MLS program fit nicely with their careers. I teach Employment Law as one of the classes in the MLS program, and I’ll have human resources students in my classes, business people. It sounds like that’s kind of where you were at, too — you were already established. You were a professional and entrepreneur, and you needed a program that fit your lifestyle, your flexibility. At least at first, the online program seemed to fit well for you.

Dave Howell: Yeah — the flexibility is huge. For some people, it’s the most important thing. For me, it wasn’t so much, because my hours are almost completely flexible. There was a bit of a drive for me, because I live 35 minutes away. So that was a consideration, but it wasn’t a huge one. I learn so much better in an immersive environment, without the distractions of home. For other people, that isn’t a factor at all.

Jim Reeves: When you were looking at the MLS program, what did you think? What were some of the considerations? Course selection, convenience, timing? What were some of the things you took into consideration in choosing Washington University and then the MLS program — beyond just the motivation of getting back to school and exploring some areas?

Dave Howell: Well, one was definitely what the focus was, if any. In this case, there were about three different tracks. One of them is tax law, one is intellectual property and technology law, and there’s a third one that I’m not thinking of at the moment — maybe it’s something international. But IP law was definitely something I was most interested in.

Jim Reeves: And that’s the program you pursued — that focus, anyway.

Dave Howell: Yeah, so it’s a Master of Legal Studies with a certificate in intellectual property and technology law. I would say that the focus is more on intellectual property than on technology law. There is one course that’s normally taught, but did not happen during my tenure here, that just sounded amazing. It was named something like Intellectual Property Law for Software Professionals. I was like, “Wow, that’s perfect.” It’s a one-credit, little course, just exactly tailored for me. But that’s okay — I can learn that in another way.

Jim Reeves: When we were talking before we went on the air here, you were describing some of the coursework that you’ve pursued. And, by the way — you started the MLS program how long ago, and you plan to finish when?

Dave Howell: Oh, yeah — so it’s really short. I started in January, and I’ll be done in December.

Jim Reeves: Fantastic. Well, we’re close to congratulations then, right?

Dave Howell: Yeah — no, I’ll take them now. If everything goes well — thumbs up.

Jim Reeves: Well, talk to me a little bit about the coursework you’ve been doing, and some of the opportunities in the classes specifically that you’ve been taking, and the opportunities you’ve seen in our program.

Dave Howell: There’s a pretty big variety in how difficult the courses are. I would say that everything that’s a core JD student course is relatively difficult — Criminal Procedure and Evidence and so on. Those were hard. They were a fair amount of work. There were others that were not much work at all. There are some that are one or one and a half credits that meet maybe once a week, or maybe for just half of a term. But all in all, if I were more disciplined, I would have about a half hour of work a night for the different programs. More realistically, just because of my work habits, it means I have two and a half hours one night. But if you have self-discipline, you could take the programs and really pace yourself and work about a half hour.

Jim Reeves: And — you’d mentioned things like criminal law or criminal procedure or something. Did you take that class as part of your MLS?

Dave Howell: I didn’t take criminal procedure. It’s not too closely related to what I’m doing. I am taking Evidence, because expert witnesses are subject to Rule 702, Rule 703, and other rules about expert witnesses. Also, I’ve always been puzzled by the way that lawyers will object during a deposition and say, “Objection — lacks foundation,” “Objection — asked and answered.” There are all these little phrases, and I have no idea what they’re talking about. So I would just have to wait for them to object. But now I think, in some of those cases at least, I’ll say, “Okay, I know that this was something somebody should object to,” and I’ll wait for the lawyer to object in a deposition.

Jim Reeves: You’d mentioned to me before that, for example, Evidence and some of the other courses you’ve taken through the MLS program — throughout your career, you’ve been dealing with lawyers.

Dave Howell: Oh yeah.

Jim Reeves: Tell me about that. That was part of your consideration for going into the Master of Legal Studies program.

Dave Howell: This is true for me, and I think it’s true for a lot of the people who — there are about six students in the MLS program right now. But for the ones I’ve met, a big consideration in choosing this program has been that they’re doing something adjacent to the law and they need to understand it — partly to spend less money on outside attorneys, and partly just to be better at their jobs. So you mentioned human resources professionals. For them, it would just be huge. I’m not an HR person, but as a CEO of a little startup, I’ve spent a lot of time talking to HR lawyers, like, “What should I do about this issue? These two employees are having a big brouhaha — kerfuffle, or kerfluffle? Which is it?” Anyway —

Jim Reeves: I think it’s “kerfuffle,” yeah.

Dave Howell: Okay. So, they’re having an issue between themselves, and I need to know what my options are as a manager to resolve it without getting myself in trouble. I should just know that stuff. That would be a great reason to pursue one of these programs. For me, you know, I’ve got this sort of odd career path — but I think there are a lot of more mainstream roles that could benefit from knowing more about the law.

Jim Reeves: Great. You had mentioned also that, while you wanted that background in law before you went into the MLS program, lawyers were talking around you. That’s kind of what you described to me. Tell me a little bit about how this program has helped.

Dave Howell: Primarily, I feel like I can add more value to a conversation now when there’s law at the heart of it. Whether it’s infringement of patent claims — I know so much more about that now than I did almost a year ago. Still not as much as somebody who’s practiced it for a couple of years full-time, but just compared to where I was, I’m much better at what I’m doing. That’s just my little corner of the law, but somebody doing HR law could be the one that everybody else in the department goes and looks to for advice on something that touches on law.

Jim Reeves: From your experience in the MLS program at Washington University — just kind of stepping back from your experience, but informed by it — who would you say would be good candidates for the MLS program?

Dave Howell: Oh, anybody looking at one of those executive programs. A lot of the Ivy League schools and other schools have executive education, and they offer certificates in something like HR, or, you know, legal tools for using AI. I’m drawing a blank, but there are so many of these programs. There’s one that’s for managing hospitals. There’s one for finance and accounting. In every one of those cases, it’s somebody who’s doing their job. They don’t have time to go full-time back to school, but they can enhance their value to their organization just by knowing more about that field. That’s what it is for MLS. Whatever corner of the law would help you be a valuable team player or leader.

Jim Reeves: One of the beauties is that we have the online program — which, of course, you explored for a period of time. And given your preferences in terms of environment in which you wanted to learn, and your ability — since you were relatively close to St. Louis, Missouri — you thought, “Okay, I’m going to do the more immersive experience and be in the classroom.” But we also offer the online program, where literally you can be anywhere in the United States, or in the world, for that matter. What else would you say to someone who was considering the MLS program at Washington University?

Dave Howell: This has been important to me: if you’ve been out of school for a little bit, and you’ve forgotten why you loved it… there were challenges, and there were frustrations, but there were things that you probably miss after you left school. You can get those back. I’m playing piano in the big band, playing some jazz piano, and it’s great. It’s not like a commitment, like a professional working band, where you have to be out a couple of times a week. It’s just, you know, once a week, I go sit at their beautiful grand piano and play some music. There are other things you can do here that are just courses you can sign up for. If you’re already paying tuition, you can sign up for a class to learn Romantic poetry, or to learn — I don’t know if there’s a course on juggling, but there should be — or music composition, or something else. You can join one of the sports training programs and do weightlifting. There’s so much going on on campus.

Jim Reeves: Well, I think we’ve covered the basics. And Dave, you have quite a career — quite a career path. You had mentioned, you know, you didn’t have the runway to do a JD. We didn’t discuss your age, but you and I are relatively close.

Dave Howell: Yeah — I’m about 120.

Jim Reeves: Oh, yeah — well, we’re very close, then. Well, good. Anything else that I haven’t asked you, that you wish I would have?

Dave Howell: No, no — this was a pleasure. It’s nice to talk about this.

Jim Reeves: Well, Dave Howell — what a pleasure to meet with you. We were introduced by one of our associate deans, Jeanne Heil-Chapdelaine, who works with International and Graduate Studies. I’m awfully glad she connected the two of us. It is always a pleasure to meet the students in the programs and have a conversation like this and get to know them in a little more depth, because everybody’s got a great story and a good reason for being here at Washington University.

Dave Howell: Well, thanks much for having me. Appreciate your time.

Jim Reeves: Thanks, Dave.