The Two-Year LLM Program

Juan Del Valle: Well, hello, everybody. My name is Juan Del Valle. I am the Director of International Programs and a lecturer in the law school for a little bit more than seven years. I had the opportunity of being a student here in our LLM for International Attorneys program back in 2009, graduated in 2010. I came originally from Colombia, where I was an attorney, and I decided to pursue my master’s degree in law here to learn more about the common law system, mostly about the U.S. legal system, and hopefully open some professional doors to work in international organizations and in U.S. law firms.

Mark Bass: I’m Mark Bass. I’m the coordinator for Legal English Programs at Washington University in St. Louis School of Law.

Juan Del Valle: Okay — welcome back to our podcast. We are here today with Mark Bass, coordinator of Legal English Programs, who oversees the two-year LLM program, which is our main focus in today’s podcast. So, Mark, tell us, in general — what is this two-year LLM program about?

Mark Bass: The two-year LLM program is a four-semester LLM program. The first year of the two-year LLM program — unlike the one-year LLM program — has a major focus on legal English. So students in the two-year LLM program, during that first year, will be taking 10 units, or 10 credits, each semester of legal English courses, alongside 5 units, or 5 credits, of their law courses in that first year — I should say.

So even though it’s a two-year program, at the end of that program, two-year LLM students still get that LLM degree. They still have the same options in terms of areas of concentration or certificates they can get. I’m not going to go into a lot of detail about the options they have — in the first episode of the podcast, Jean Heil-Chapdelaine goes over a lot of the details of the different types of LLM degrees you can get. At the end of their program, the two-year LLM students still get the same degree that the one-year LLM students get. The difference is that they’ve had that extra year to get extra preparation for their law studies.

Juan Del Valle: So, Mark — give us some examples of those courses that these students may take in their first year of the two-year LLM program, specifically courses that have to do with legal English.

Mark Bass: Sure. Let’s take it a semester at a time. So, in the first semester of the two-year LLM program, students take, as I said before, 10 units of legal English courses — and that actually is two five-credit courses. So one course is Legal English Writing and Reading, and the other course is Legal English Communication Skills, which is the listening and speaking course.

In these courses, students are working on building those English skills specifically needed for the formats of communication that they’ll need in law school, that they’ll need in their careers. So we focus on all four language skill areas — listening, reading, writing, and speaking.

Alongside those courses, they’re also taking introductory courses in the first semester. They’ll take Introduction to U.S. Law. They also take a foundations course, which they take during orientation, actually. And then they have another one-credit weekend course that they take as well. This last semester it was a client counseling course, I think, that they took.

So even though the first year is focused on legal English skills, it’s not that they’re only doing legal English, or that they’re not in law school, or that they’re not taking their law courses yet. They’re taking law courses alongside their legal English courses.

In the second semester, we do the same thing. They’ll take part two of Legal English Writing and Reading. They’ll take part two of Legal English Communication Skills. And they’ll also take part two of the Introduction to U.S. Law course. In addition to that, in the second semester, they take another, more substantive law course, that is one of the bar-required courses. For the last two years, the students have taken constitutional law in their second semester, and previously, in different years, we’ve had torts law, we’ve had property law, we’ve had contracts law — but it’s always a course that is required for the bar.

So really, in that first year, they’re taking law courses, but they’re kind of slowly getting into the more difficult topics. All the while, they’re getting support through the legal English courses they’re taking. The activities and the assignments they have, that they’re working on in their legal English courses — those all come from topics and readings from their law courses.

So, for example, we work with a lot of cases, because in U.S. law school, you read lots and lots of cases. So students have cases, and they have concepts that they have to read about in their Intro to Law class. They have the same in their constitutional law class. We have assignments in the legal English courses that are based on the cases and the things that they’re reading for those law classes.

There are a couple of reasons for that. One — we’re helping students through their law classes as they’re going. They’re taking the law classes, but they’ve got this extra support through the legal English courses. The other benefit is that we’re using their real law courses to help work on those legal English skills. So during that first year, they’re really building up their English skills and their legal skills.

Juan Del Valle: That’s wonderful. One question, Mark — these students that are in the two-year program and that have access to these substantive law courses in their second semester: would they have a little bit more flexibility during their second year to fulfill those requirements for the bar exam? Is that correct?

Mark Bass: Yes, that’s correct. There are a lot of benefits by the time they get to that second year. One of them is, yes — they’ve already taken a number of credits. They’ll have taken 10 credits that will count towards their LLM degree before they start that second year. So they’ve got 10 credits from the law courses, and then they’ve got those 20 credits from the first year for the legal English courses, which count towards their legal English credentials.

But yes, they’re more prepared by the time they get into that second year. They’re familiar with how to write legal memos. They’re familiar with how to write legal briefs. They know what to expect from their law exams. They’ve practiced timed writings. They’ve practiced law-exam taking. They’ve practiced presenting on legal topics. We do a lot of role plays where they’ve practiced negotiation. They’ve practiced client interviewing. They’ve debated law topics. That’s all in the first year, before they get to that second year.

In that second year, it’s like the one-year LLM program. In that second year, students choose their own courses, and that is 100% law courses they’re taking. There are no legal English courses. It’s like they’re starting the one-year LLM in their second year — but in that second year, they will be much better prepared. They’ll already know what to expect. And as you mentioned before, they’ll have those extra credits towards their LLM degree. That gives them more options to select the courses that they want to take, and select the courses they need if they’re pursuing a certificate or a specialization.

Juan Del Valle: That’s excellent. According to what you’re telling us, the fact that these legal English courses are not totally independent from the substantive law courses they are taking — let’s say constitutional law, or property, or contracts — but they’re actually using that material… what that’s making is, they’re getting more preparation in those areas. So it’s wonderful to see that the first year is not just an English course. It is really a law course, because it’s law-oriented, it’s law-focused, it’s applying law. So I think that, at the same time while they’re obtaining all these additional skills, they’re definitely going to be doing very well, hopefully, in their second year and after graduation. That’s amazing.

Now, let me ask you another question, Mark. I understand that we have had students from around the globe in this two-year program. We have had — that I recall — students from Asia. We have had students from the Middle East. We have had students from Central and South America in our program. Now, let me ask you — what are the advantages for these students who come from non-English-speaking countries?

Mark Bass: Of course, the legal English itself is a big advantage if students are coming from non-English-speaking countries. They have a whole year to improve their English before they’re really getting into a full load of law courses.

Juan Del Valle: Does that mean that students who want to apply for the two-year program may apply with sometimes a little bit of lower scores in their English language tests than for the one-year program?

Mark Bass: Yes — because that first year has a strong focus on legal English skills, the requirements for the English language scores are lower, so students can be accepted into the two-year LLM program who have lower scores.

Juan Del Valle: You know, I recall an applicant — I think this applicant was from Asia, from an Asian country. Even though this applicant met the requirements for the one-year program in their TOEFL test, they decided to go for the two-year program because they felt they still needed to acquire more skills and needed to feel stronger in their legal English skills before facing upper-level courses. Have you seen those cases?

Mark Bass: Yes, yes. There are different advantages and different reasons why students opt to take the two-year LLM. One is the first case I mentioned and that you brought up — that their scores are not quite as high to get into the one-year LLM program. But there are also students who just want that extra preparation. They want that extra year. They want to make sure that, even though their English scores would allow them to go straight into the one-year LLM program, they have that extra practice, that extra help, that extra year of working on their English — of working specifically on how you write for legal purposes, working on that legal vocabulary, discussing legal topics, reading cases.

So yes, we do have a number of students who take the two-year program just because they want that extra preparation. And some just want that extra year — more time in the U.S., more time to acclimate to the culture, the language, everything else — so they’ll be more confident once they start taking a full load of law courses.

Juan Del Valle: Now, another question I wanted to ask you in this podcast regarding the two-year LLM program is the practical opportunities that our students have throughout the program. I’m talking specifically about internships and externships. What possibilities do these two-year LLM students have regarding that?

Mark Bass: Yeah, that’s a great question. A great benefit of the two-year program is that students can qualify for Curricular Practical Training, or CPT — that’s what the government calls that visa approval for being able to do an internship or an externship. So students in the two-year LLM program — they’re here for two years, so that opens up opportunities between the two years in the summer, more opportunity to be able to perhaps take on an internship or an externship. There’s also Optional Practical Training, which students have the opportunity to take after they graduate. But yes, that CPT — having that extra year here — opens up more opportunity.

Juan Del Valle: Oh, that’s great. I think that opportunity is definitely going to be impacting not only their knowledge, but also their resumes and the paths after graduation.

Now, Mark — as you know, I was a former student in our LLM program back in 2009.

Mark Bass: I do know that, yeah.

Juan Del Valle: I was from Colombia, a South American country, so my native language was Spanish. Of course, that transition of coming to the United States and studying in a top law school such as WashU Law, and making that switch not only in the legal system but also in language — it’s challenging. So I totally get the nervousness that our applicants and our students have whenever they come. Now — what other tools do we offer these two-year LLM students throughout their first and second years to help them with that big transition of legal systems, but also of language?

Mark Bass: In that first year — specifically for the two-year LLM students in that first year — we have, particularly in the second semester, they are also assigned to small study groups with a TA. So small groups — maybe five or six students — meet each week. They meet with a TA. The TAs are JD students who are in their second or third year, and they’ve been selected to serve in this kind of mentoring, tutoring role to help out the students.

The great thing about that is, these JD students in their second or third year — they’ve already been there. They know what it’s like going through that first year of law school. They know what it’s like trying to acclimate to this type of writing, the vocabulary, and all the difficulties there. So during that second semester, every week, the students — in addition to their other courses — are meeting with TAs in small groups, and they can ask questions. The TAs know what the students are going over, what they’re doing in their courses, so they address particular areas of difficulty and answer the students’ questions and help them out — bringing that experience of being a law student who has just recently gone through their first year themselves. So that’s a great benefit.

Another support we have for the two-year LLM students is the Center for Academic Support and Legal Writing — or, we call it CASL for short. This is available to the two-year LLM students both in their first year and in their second year. It’s also available to all the LLM students. It’s a center where students can make appointments to meet with TAs. Again, they’re TAs who are JD students in their second or third year. The students can make appointments to meet with them for any problems they’re having — with any assignments they’re working on, any concepts they’re working on, not just in the legal English courses, not just in their first-year courses. When they get into their second year, they can make appointments and get help with any of the courses they’re taking in their second year. Again, that’s available to all LLM students.

So we support the two-year LLM students during their first year. They’ve got a lot of support going through those courses and slowly getting into the more difficult courses. But even in that second year, there’s support for them. They can still get assistance from TAs to get extra help. It’s not as though we just cut them loose in that second year. We’re still there to give them support and help them out.

Juan Del Valle: That’s amazing. That’s amazing. As you were talking about this last area of support, and all these opportunities that our students have, I was also just thinking about these amazing students that we have had in our two-year program, and how successful they have been — not only at law school, which is important, but also right now. I was thinking about some examples. I remember one of our students from the Middle East who was just now named to a position for the World Bank in Washington, D.C. We have had several of our graduates from the two-year program who are right now acting as professors in their home institutions. I have one of our graduates from several years ago who is the dean of the law program in one university in Chile. Remembering another one — a student from Mexico who is right now working for a very nice and important law firm here in the United States.

So I really think that this two-year program can be so beneficial for those students who want to really increase their skills, not only in legal English but also in law — entering these different legal systems and acquiring a wider amount of knowledge before they graduate and go out there. I really think this is very beneficial for them.

Mark Bass: Thanks. Yeah — thanks for bringing up those students. We have had many students who’ve been really successful. Those are just some. There are a bunch — those are just the ones that came to mind right now — who’ve gone through the two-year LLM program. I keep in contact with many of the two-year LLM students, both when they’re in their second year and after they’ve graduated and gotten their LLM degree and gone on to their careers. Consistently, I have students contact me and talk to me about how they’re so glad that they did the two-year LLM program, because they’re really glad they got that extra preparation. And as you said, many of them are very successful.

Juan Del Valle: Definitely, definitely. Well — I’m very glad that we were able to talk about this amazing program, Mark. Thank you so much for being here and for, of course, telling us everything you told us about these programs. Of course, if anybody has any more questions about the two-year program, please feel free to contact Mark Bass, who is going to be the man that has the answers.

Mark Bass: Yeah — you can reach out to me directly through email. It’s mark.bass@wustl.edu.

Juan Del Valle: Thank you, Mark. Thank you so much.

Mark Bass: All right — thank you, Juan.